To normalize or not...

[Tom H.]

A friend recently came into possession of a stalking rifle in 6.5x52r. Nice little rifle with a few problems, but mostly cosmetic. Probably little collectors value but good as a shooter.
The chamber will accept S&B ammunition but definitely not 25-35.
Do I send the reamer in?
I had previously taken on a project like this, resizing 25-35 brass by grinding down the shellholder until the cases fit but the rims needed to be turned as well.
I believe that this topic has been touched before with the 9.3x72r and the myriad of chamberings.

Thoughts?

Cheers
Tom

[sharps4590]

Alter the ammo, not the firearm. They're only original once.

[mike ford]

Grinding the shellholder, sometimes results in the top being pulled off by a stuck case. The same thing can be achieved by shortening the die,or by pushing the case in with the top of a 22 hornet shellholder and driving it out with a punch(remove primer punch assy). BTW, I'm surprised 25-35 cases don't fit this rifle, is it due to rim thickness.
Mike

[Axel E]

Here I disagree with both Sharps and Mike. If you have access to a .25-35 chambering reamer, ream the chamber the tiny amount to accept SAAMI specification ammo. The .25-35 Winchester was normalized as the 6.5x52R by 1925, a year before the Amrican Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute = SAAMI was founded and started to fix min/max dimensions and pressures for ammo made in USA. So German 6.5x52R chamber and case dimensions were a bit tighter than the slightly more generous American chambers. So most German chambers will accept SAAMI maximum cases, but some German minimum chambers , like your's, will not. I see no serious alteration in bringing up the chamber to SAAMI specs. One or two turns of a chambering reamer will be sufficient and will save a lot of work and bother for the future.

[Tom H.]

Thank you for all of the replies.
This is the second 6.5x52r that I have worked with. Wasn't aware of the 1925 date, but neither rifle will accept factory ammo as the issue was in the shoulder and the rim. IIRC the rim was too wide and thick although not by much.

I do believe that keeping things original is important, but my question is: How many "original" rifles that are viewed that way now were at some point normalized while still in Europe (9.3x72r being a case in point)?

[sharps4590]

I have no idea but from the few crown over R stamps I see it must not have been done very often, unless cutting a chamber to the new "Normal" did not require the stamp in Germany. I enjoy dinking around with the ammo to make it fit the rifle but then I consider myself a pretty serious handloader. Most reloaders take a recipe from a trusted source and repeat it and aren't nearly as serious. The vast majority of shooters aren't happy unless they can buy their ammo across the counter. If your friend has to or prefers to buy his ammo across the counter then perhaps you should send in the reamer. Thoughts were asked for and I offered mine....and it is worth precisely what you paid for it

[mike ford]

I was always against rechambering German guns except for a couple calibers, 9.3x72R among them. Now, I can add 6.5x52R; just don't try rechambering a 6.5x58R to a modern 6.5( and I'm a wildcater no less).
Mike

[Axel E]

Until 1940 a repair proof was not necessary if a chamber was merely altered to take a case with the same loads. In fact, the normalized dimensions were designed so that all existing chambers, for instance 9.3x72R E, D and Nimrod could be cleaned up without reproof, see "Der Waffenschmied 1910, page 10". Remember, guns then were not proofed for a maximum pressure, but for a certain, most often standard load. So you will not detect if a rifle now chambered for the 9.3x72R Normal was altered from one of the other 9.3x72R shapes. According to the 1934 RWS handbook, reproof was not necessary if an 8mm chamber was opened up in the neck-throat area to shoot S ammo. So cleaning up a 6.5x52R chamber to take modern dimension American .25-35 cases falls under the same pre-1940 rules. But a repair proof would certainly be necessary if you rechamber a .25-35 to an Ackley improved shape. I would certainly disapprove such rechambering jobs found in America trying to convert old German guns to take available American cartridges never used over here, f.i. rechambering a 8.15x46R to .32 Winchester or a 11.15x60R Mauser to .500-450 #2 Musket (Ihave seen such a thing!). This would really destroy originality.

[Tom H.]

Every time I see a schutzen rifle rechambered to 32 special I just shake my head. That being said, thank you for the education regarding the pre-1940 rules. Cleaning up a chamber is one thing as opposed to rechambering.
My friend watched the process behind getting the first rifle shooting. The owner had ordered "custom" ammo from a dealer that didn't fit the rifle. The brass was 25-35 and was all wrong for the rifle, and at $50 a box he was not happy. I converted one box for him and I believe that he returned the second.
Yes Mike, I did ruin one shellholder. Imperial sizing wax works though.
He did manage to find a few boxes of S&B when he found the current rifle but he isn't a handloader either, so eventually the chamber will probably be made right for American ammo.

[sharps4590]

Thanks Axel for the education. I didn't know if "normalizing" the chamber would require a reproof or not....I still have MUCH to learn regarding the proof requirements under the different German proof laws that were adopted over the years......as is obvious!!!

Tom, it appears in this instance that cleaning up the chamber will greatly benefit your friend and that as the change is so slight it shouldn't matter. I still probably wouldn't do it but more out of being obstinate than for any practical reason...but as I mentioned, I enjoy doing that sort of thing and practicality can go by the wayside. Tis one of my many faults.....lol!

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks for the information, I didn't realize some rechambering didn't require a "repair"proof;especially when changing from an "I or IR" chamber to an "IS or IRS"chamber. Now I'll know not to look for a "repair" proof when trying to ID the chamber in a 7.8 or 7.7 markrd barrel.
Vic,
I guess I'm pretty much like you, I would just shoot it like it is also, except I would make cases from 30-30- I count it by the "gallon", instead of the "each". Once fireformed, the cases can still be loaded with standard 25-35 dies.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, that was my thoughts exactly. I don't have them by the gallons but there's enough there for my life time. After forming all they would need would be neck sized. I can see his reasons however, especially as he doesn't handload....oh my...perish the thought!!!!

[Axel E]

It is quite safe to say: All pre-1910 9.3x72R barrels that accept "modern" 9.3x72R Normal cartridges had their chambers altered, as the N case did not yet exist.

[mike ford]

Also good info,Axel

[Tom H.]

If it was my rifle I probably wouldn't fool with it either. I have reloaded for enough of these things and I would rather tweak a die or turn a rim. Hey, this one isn't my rifle but I am looking forward to seeing how it shoots.
My other current projects are a 16ga Meffert hammer drilling that had terribly pitted shotgun barrels and a nearly mint 11Mauser barrel. Anyone know an outfit with a lapping bench?
Also another hammer drilling in 20ga by .450BPE x 2 5/8 (can't remember the metric on that one)

Thank you all for the comments and education.

Cheers,

Tom