GL Rasch double rifle

[Leatherman]

Just got this G L Rasch double rifle last week in Baltimore. Was pretty dirty when I got it and when I started wiping the dirt and grim off the metal I was surprised to see the little gold inlaid stars popping out. They were black when I saw it on the dealers table so I thought they were just engraved as most of his examples are. I have two other Drillings of his and they have his unique cross hatch pattern in places but not as profusely as on this one, nor do they have gold in the tiny stars. I have made a chamber cast and as far as I can tell it looks like it is the 11.15 X 83 R which in Dixons book says it is the German version of the English 450 BPE. So I am asking if anyone has a German gun in this caliber and can give me some insight on if they have made their own cartridges useing 450 BP cases and where they have got their loading dies made.

[sharps4590]

Oh my!!! That is a very, very nice piece Leatherman, congrats!!!

I can't answer your question about what parent case to use but a careful comparison of the 450 BPE and your chamber cast should tell you. Regarding the dies, when you can come up with a couple cases fired in your rifle CH-4D can make them for you, fairly reasonably I believe. Dave has done some for me. They are great to work with and I'm more than pleased with the quality. I'll offer his link.

http://www.ch4d.com/

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
What is the diameter of the chamber cast at the head and the groove diameter? Could you post a photo of the chamber cast? That is a nice looking rifle, by the way.
Mike

[collath]

Leatherman,

I posted earlier but I guess it didn't register. Anyway, I believe there are two versions of the 450 BPE one with a thick rim (0.060") and one a thin (0.040"). You should be able to tell from the casting or measuring the rim recess in the chamber. The new Kynock is making 450 express in nitro for black but I think they are hard to find. My reference shows a 120 grain BP load behind a 270 grain lead bullet. Some people use a .40 conversion ratio for BP to nitro that gives a start in IMR-4198. Sherman Bell did a whole article about this in Double Gun Journal Volume 10 Issue 3. Good luck that is a great looking rifle. collath

[collath]

Leatherman, I was thinking further on this and turned to John Taylor for a bit more info. He doesn't mention different rim thicknesses but there was definitely a nitro for black load of 45 grains cordite and 365 grain metal based bullet back in the day and that may account for it. He also mentions several bullets in the original loading. a 270 grain but copper tubed, a 310 grain solid lead, a 325 grain copper tubed and a 365 grain solid lead. You may want to look closely at the proofs to see if a specific bullet is called out. Once again good luck. collath

[Axel E]

That trademark cross-hatch pattern was called "Rasch'sche Karreegravierung" = Rasch's squares engraving here in Germany. It was done for Rasch by a forgotten engraver at the nearby old Hanoverian gunmaking center Herzberg, see Waidmannsheil! # 55, "The Rasch family of Braunschweig Büchsenmachers" by Larry Schuknecht and me.
As with the 9.3x72R there were originally two versions of the 11.6x83R aka .450 3 ¼" Express, the original "E" (English) and the "D" (Deutsch) version. While the "E" type is the same case like the .450 3 ¼" Nitro Express, with a straight taper from a .547" base to mouth, the "D" case started with a quick taper from a .551" base for about an inch, then continued almost straight to the mouth. Rim thickness was the same, but the D had a slightly larger rim nominally. As Hornady offers the NE version, cases should not be an unsurmountable problem. In a D chamber the NE case may need a bit of resizing to about .5" from the base. for loads, get the book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright. He gives a lot of pressure tested loads and tips for both blackpowder and Nitro for Black loads.

[collath]

Leatherman,

I defer to Axel regarding the Deutsch version and he is right about the book. Anyone with a double rifle could benefit from it. I found the section regarding fillers and wads especially informative. Loading for regulation was at least as good. Worth the cost.

I always learn something from stuff like this. Thanks, collath

[Leatherman]

That trademark cross-hatch pattern was called "Rasch'sche Karreegravierung" = Rasch's squares engraving here in Germany. It was done for Rasch by a forgotten engraver at the nearby old Hanoverian gunmaking center Herzberg, see Waidmannsheil! # 55, "The Rasch family of Braunschweig Büchsenmachers" by Larry Schuknecht and me.
As with the 9.3x72R there were originally two versions of the 11.6x83R aka .450 3 ¼" Express, the original "E" (English) and the "D" (Deutsch) version. While the "E" type is the same case like the .450 3 ¼" Nitro Express, with a straight taper from a .547" base to mouth, the "D" case started with a quick taper from a .551" base for about an inch, then continued almost straight to the mouth. Rim thickness was the same, but the D had a slightly larger rim nominally. As Hornady offers the NE version, cases should not be an unsurmountable problem. In a D chamber the NE case may need a bit of resizing to about .5" from the base. for loads, get the book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright. He gives a lot of pressure tested loads and tips for both blackpowder and Nitro for Black loads.

My chamber casting shows a base of .551" right at the rim with a taper for about an inch as you describe the "D" case. It has a thin rim with a diameter of .622. Not much rim to catch on the extractor. I will get a 450 NE brass and see if the rim will work. The bore cast is hard to get a reading on as one caliper jaw rest on the land while the opposite one rests on the groove. I have read how to work that out but I forget. So I guess I need to send a chamber casting out to have a set of loading dies made? Or do you suggest I talk to the die maker first and see what they suggest? I do have Graeme Wrights book as I also have a British .500 BPE double rifle that I haven't started to play with yet. Great book! It will come in handy now I have 3 double rifles to get shooting this summer. I am still working on the Collath double rifle in 9.3x80 Collath but I will post my results on that post to keep it separate. Thanks for the info.

[Leatherman]

I failed to mention there are no proof marks or any numbers on the bottom of the barrels.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
Huntington Die Specialties shows Hornady Brass in 450 NE for about $68/20, but it is currently out of stock. They also show Hornady 450-400 3.25" cases at about the same price, and don't list them as out of stock.It's your money, so it's your choice, but I suspect the 450-400 3.24" will chamber in your rifle's "D" type chamber after making the rim fit. If so, it will be easy to fireform it to your chamber. Once fireformed, you could load it with normal dies( ie like necksizing dies). To precisely measure a "slug" with an uneven number of grooves requires a special Micrometer or a special "V" block and normal mic. You can measure it fairly closely by carefully "rolling" between the jaws of an electronic caliper, allowing the slug open the jaws, until it "clears. Another way to do it is to wrap the slug with the thinnest(usually 0.0015")feeler gauge in a set, measure it with a mic.,and suptract twice the thickness of the feeler gauge. As an alternative you could do the same thing with a piece of 0.001 shim stock.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, you know more tricks than Carter has little liver pills. I do hope you know how much me and many others appreciate your willingness to share them. Thanks.

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
I guess I'm just a tricky old fart.
Mike

[collath]

Leatherman,

I saw 450 NE available and on sale at MidwayUSA 20 @ $45.81 a box. According to the site there are 15 boxes available at this price. I use the rolling method to measure odd numbers of rifling and it works well enough. The other techniques mentioned are all good and will work.

Thanks, collath

[Leatherman]

I used the rolling method and come up with a average of .447"just ahead of the chamber. Going to make another cast at the bore end and see what I get. Definitely not an English .458. I annealed a 450 BPE case and drove it into a chamber. It sized it down 1" from the front and 1/4" from the rim. You can see the lengthwise marks on the brass where the walls of the chamber came in contact with the brass. Like I said the brass 1" back from the mouth forward does not show any contact and remains the same size as a .450 bpe . My neck size of the chamber cast shows a .484 neck chamber. The brass at the neck measures .010" so if you double that(.020") and add to the bore size of (.447) you get .456". That gives a .028"clearance in the neck area. I don't know what the maximum amount of clearance there should be. I read some where the minimum should be at least .003". I have a friend who has a reamer for a .450 bpe that he used on an old german double that had a odd chamber but shot a 43 caliber bullet. I am going to take it to a gunsmith that I trust and see if he thinks the chambers can be opened up to the standard 450 bpe with the given neck / throat and bullet dimensions of the gun. If it can I see this as only making the gun more valuable as it has no markings on it and the next owner doesn't have to worry with sizeing down brass and just needs to neck size 450 bpe to what ever size bullet I find works best. I'll let you all know.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
First of all, I understand this is your rifle, and you can do whatever you want with it. With that said, I urge you not to have it rechambered, as long as there is any other solution.Driving a protected case into a chamber is a trick I learned from an old friend, and have used it a couple times. In your case, unless you tried and I was wrong, You can save a lot of work by fireforming 450-400, 3.25"cases to your chamber.Since I'm not likely able to afford this rifle it wouldn't be a conflict of interest to say rechambering it will likely open you to complaints of "bubbering it up",while negotiating a sale price ( we see this complaint for reasonable and necessary changes). If you want to keep it "as is", I will help you however I can.
Mike