GL Rasch double rifle

[sharps4590]

I will strongly agree with Mike. They're only original once and as nice as that rifle is there's a greater than average probability that rechambering will decrease the value considerably. Ross Seyfried maintains to alter the ammo, not the rifle. An approach I agree with wholeheartedly. There is some way to come up with cases and Mike would be the one to know. He has helped me immensely. Collath might have an idea or two also.

[Leatherman]

I understand what your saying and agree and also disagree. I only have been into the vintage German guns for about three years now and have collected over a dozen long guns of various calibers, all of which loaded ammo can be bought for and reloading components also bought. I have seen many Drillings with 9.3 bores relined into 22 hornet which I passed on as I would rather have an original 22 hornet gun. I have also tried to sell some of my drillings but have found the average person not having the appreciation of collecting original condition guns , is not interested in a gun they can't find ammo for at the local gun store. But if you include a couple boxes of shells, or 50 new brass cases and reloading dies , it makes the sale a lot easier and actually increases the value. Now these odd cartridges that no ammo or components are available make it next to impossible to sell a gun except to a truly die hard collector like us who are willing to put the time, and expense into making a few brass cases to shoot the gun or someone who just collects it for the art and keeps it as a safe queen. I myself and a few friends I have met who collect these guns , use them for hunting and some informal shooting competition so opening up a chamber a tad to make available brass work and keep it in the same bullet caliber seems more acceptable than relinning the bore into some American caliber. Sort of like normalizing a 9.3x72 D into the later normal case. I just think there is two sides to this and I totally understand what your saying. So I am willing to try to make brass work in this gun and will need your help. The chamber is the 11.6x 83R D which as Axel pointed out is tapered from the neck to about 1" from the rim and flares out to the base. Neither the 450 or the 450 400 brass will fit into the chamber more than 1" before it gets tight even though the base ,neck and rim are the same. In Dixons book there are a few examples of 11.6 mm calibers useing the 450 bpe case but they are shorter much like our 45 70. This one has to be that odd one that is needing a sizeing die to swage the 450 case down . I had asked before if I made a chamber cast if I could send it out to have a swaging die made. I am totally green when it comes to forming brass cases into something else. I have spent hours on the Internet and still can't get all the answers I need as all the instructions are geared toward modern rifle cases talking about shapeing shoulders and necking up or down from common donor brass. These 3" + long cases also don't afford the use of most other caliber dies to be used to size them as the dies are too short. What do you think I should do next?

[sharps4590]

If brass can be made for my drilling in 9.3 X 75R Nimrod or another drilling I own that had been rechambered from original to something entirely unknown I'm certain this one can be made. I use all of my German drillings, stalking rifles and combination guns for hunting....and there's a couple weird ones in the stable....lol!!!

From your description of the chamber and the dimensions I have of the 450 NE case it seems to me the 450, 3 1/4 could be easily made to work. From what I can see there is only .003 difference between the two head sizes, virtually nothing. It appears all that's needed is a swaging die to reduce that portion of the case body that is too large, or as evidently you have already done, lube and drive a case in the chamber enough to size it then fireform it. Once that is achieved a properly sized mold of the correct weight can be acquired from several sources. I've used Accurate Molds in Salt Lake on several occasions for just such purposes and with complete satisfaction. Reference the discrepancy between bore dimensions of the 450 and this cartridge a sizing die for perhaps the 43 Mauser could be used to neck the case down enough to hold the bullet and get a couple fired cases then making the correct dies is easily done by CH-4D. Or, a heavy forming charge to fully expand the case would more than likely work also. Dave at CH-4D will not make dies from a chamber cast. At least he wouldn't for me, he required two, fired cases. The two sets he made for me, for a 9 X 71 Peterlongo and an oddly chambered 9 X 57 Sauer bolt rifle are excellent.

Forming cases for these old firearms isn't particularly difficult...but frequently it can make you scratch your head.

[collath]

Leatherman,

Could you post the measurements from your chamber cast ticking off the change points? I cannot find any drawing of the 11.6x83R D cartridge in my books but depending on the diameters involved you may be able to use a common die to taper the case as needed. It seems that the case you have will only go in to about one inch which is the point where the taper starts. Perhaps a member has a drawing they can copy and post. That would be a huge help.

Thanks, collath

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
If you read between the lines, what sharps4590,collath, and I are saying is you need to size whichever case you are going to use small enough to fit into the hole,then fireform it to fit the chamber. Considering the length of the neck on the 450-400 3 1/4" case, I'm amazed it will only go one inch into the chamber. Could you post a photo of the chambercast as collath suggested? Often people include the leade , ahead of the chamber,in what they think is the chamber.This mistake is often made for older chambers,where the line between chamber and leade is not very clear. If the chamber length is correct, we need to identify the area of interference.You can do this by "smoking"the case with a lighter or candle.A magic marker or something similar will also work. If you force the "smoked" case into the chamber, as far as it will go, where the smoke is rubbed off is the area of interference. You can then measure the diameter of this area and you will know the case has to be sized smaller than this. It can be sized several "thousandths" smaller, since fireforming will expand it back. The task, then is to find something or make something that can be used to size the case small enough. The others in this conversation have the equipment necessary to make a simple die to do this. I have absolutly no idea what equipment you have avaliable, except I know you have a pair of rifle barrels. If the interference is not too severe, you can (if you decide to) drive a lubricated case into the chamber, by placing a piece of wood on the case head and tapping it into the chamber with a hammer( remove the barrels first), then, drive it out of the chamber with a rod through the muzzle. Then wrap the case with a piece of paper and drive it in again. This should give enough clearence for the case to then chamber, and can be fireformed. The reason I reccommend starting with the 450-400 is the factory already started the sizing process and has done the hardest part. On the other hand, If you have(or know someone that has) a lathe avaliable, you can easily make a die to size the cases. It would be threaded 7/8"-14 (or other size to fit your press) with a highly polished hole of the diameter you determined after smoking the case( or a convienent smaller diameter to fit avaliable drill/reamer). The die should be made of steel, but it is not necessary to harden it for the few cases you would need. For some case modifications I have to make, I use a hydraulic press, but you wouldn't need one for the small difference in diameters you will encounter, a good loading press should have enough power. The good part of all this is that once you have fireformed cases, you should be able to load ammo with normal 450 express dies, and avoid custom ones (standard will be expensive enough). If you have other questions, let me know. BTW, in my not often accepted opinion, the last thing this rifle needs is a new chamber that will accept factory loaded 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express Cartridges.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Precisely in line with what Mike & collath are saying, I had to do the same thing with the 9.3 X 75R Nimrod. A part of the case body, about the middle of the case, was too big to chamber. Mike suggested a 38-55 sizing die as being of a small enough diameter to take the case body down so I could fire form cases. What I ended up doing was precisely that. I bought a cheap set of Lee 38-55 dies and as the hole where the decapping stem screwed into the die was too small for the case to pass through I ground out the threads and the rest of the opening until the case would pass through. It didn't need any finish as the case never touched where I ground. I did need to anneal the cases in that area. I tried two and when fireformed they split where the body was taken down, so I lost two expensive 9.3 X 82R cases. Annealing ended that.

For those who receive the "Double Gun Journal" in the latest issue, which was received yesterday, Sherman Bell offers his opinion on the indignity of rechambering a fine old rifle. It's diplomatic even if colorful.

[Axel E]

I fully agree with Mike, sharps and Collath. Don't Change that old blackpowder rifle so it would take .450 Nitro Express cartridges too. A future owner may stuff full power NE loads into it and so end it's career for bad. sharps' trick may work for you as well, just use a .45-70 sizing die instead.

[collath]

Leatherman, I think you can see that we all want to see you shoot this rifle as it was meant to be. It always seems more difficult in the beginning but there is a lot of help out here. Axel may be onto something with the 45-70 die but if you could make a little drawing of your chamber case it would help a great deal in figuring out if there is a die that will work or if something needs to be made. Making a tool is not that difficult and I would be happy to try and help with that. Believe me when you do get to shoot it the reward will be worth the effort. Thanks, collath

[Leatherman]

I will make a drawing of my chamber cast with all measurements and include a picture of the case I drove into the chamber which will show where the constrictions are. My lee press is not strong enough to swage these cases, I broke it swageing the 9.3x80 Collath cases last night. So I order a RCBS Summit press and should have it by the end of the week. Collath, I see your from Allentown area. I am in Carlisle. I would like to meet you some time and would be willing to make the trip up. If you have something that would work on this project I will take you up on your offer.
I am at a cross road again on my 9.3 Collath project but I will cover that on that topic. Thanks again to every one .

[collath]

Leatherman,

I was just at Carlisle Fish & Game last weekend for the L.C. Smith collectors shoot. Sorry I didn't know you were in that area. I would be happy to get together sometime. It would be my pleasure to have you visit but could meet half way if it would be easier. Let me ask this, how did the case drive into the chamber? Easy? Hard? That could tell us a bit too. Get your drawing / photo made and we will go from there.

Thanks, collath

[sharps4590]

For my selfish and prideful self there is a cool factor that can be obtained in no other way than when someone asks, "You're shooting what? Never heard of it but it looks cool!!!". More often than not those old rifles can be made to shoot very well.....and therein lies another bit, (often a very sizeable bit!!), of satisfaction.

A 45-70 die never occurred to me so that's definitely worth checking out!!

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
In my opinion, it would be worth your while to meet collath "face to face",even if he couldn't help you on this project.It is pretty rare to be within driving range of someone in the GGCA, and I think a long term friendship could result. I had considered 45-70 dies, as Axel mentioned, but I was of the opinion that they would be too small. Since the interference seems to be higher on the body, they might work with a strong press. I had considered them too small because the 45-70 head diameter is about .505", and the 450 is about .548". Note sharps4590's experience with having to grind out the threads in his 38-55 die.This is because some makes of dies have the deprimer screwed directly into the die(his did)and others have the deprimer in a bushing which is screwed into the die(such as mine). The standard thread for this bushing is 1/2-20, which would be large enough to pass a 9.3x72R case, but it is not large enough to pass a 450 case(or 45-70). The minor dia of this 1/2" thread is less than 1/2". As another hint, when sizing something that is pretty difficult (such as 9.3x72R case in 32-40 trim die, for fireforming to 8x72R), do not try to "power it through" in one stroke. Instead, after lubing well, size as far as possible with pretty heavy pressure, then withdraw the case, rotate it a little, then run it in again.Keep doing this until it is sized as desired.The little Lee press is used with satisfaction by several of my friends, but is not up to this work. Strong presses usually are advertised as being powerful enough to swage bullets. They usually are threaded for larger than 7/8-14 dies and have a bushing with the 7/8"thread.This bushing is obvious and is a sign of a powerful press. You might consider using sharps4570's trick of annealing the area of interference. Just be sure to hold the head of the case in your fingers to avoid annealing the head(you can't hold it that hot).Good luck, let us know how it works out.
Mike

[Leatherman]

oK here is a picture of my chamber cast and the 450 brass case that was driven into the chamber. The picture should be pretty self explanatory . I give all the measurements I think are needed. If you need anything else let me know. The 450 brass required pretty heavy hitting with a 4 lb hammer and was completely annealed the length of the case. I used a piece of brass stock on the base which damaged the rim a bit. Of course the case diameter sprung back out after it was knocked out and will not go back into the chamber without driving it in again. The 450 brass case base size I think is perfect size for this chamber and the rim size fits as well. All is needed is to size down the portion as marked on the case in black. image.jpg

[sharps4590]

If you have an extra, old 45-70 sizing die lying around I believe I would give it a whirl. At the base .008 isn't that much. My concern would be the rest of the case as the 45-70 neck diameter is .475 whereas yours is .491...but then .016 isn't that much really. By going slowly I've moved brass a lot farther with success. If the case won't fit through the decapping pin hole then obviously you'll have to sacrifice the die. If you take it in short, slow stages as Mike described I believe it would work. Then it will fireform back out.

Barring that I believe I would make a die from a 7/8 X 14 bolt cut to .504 and another to like .492. Size with the small one first, you can set the depth, then size again with the larger one and you should be able to fireform. I'm still fairly new at parts of this so let's see what the pro's have to say.

The only source I have is Cartridges of the World, not always the best for German cartridges, and I checked it and couldn't find anything really close enough to work in any of the cartridges listed, from any country.

If you should need some .446 bullets I have a Lyman mold for my 43 Mauser and I'd be glad to send you some to try. I don't recall the exact diameter off the top of my head but I believe it would work. It is 340 grains so I don't know if that's too heavy and long for the twist of your rifle....I wouldn't think so.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
After seeing the dimensions of the chamber cast,I think a 45-70 die, as Sharps4590 and Axel suggest will work; but the easiest would be to order a "file trim die", since it would be open at the top and should clear the case. If you look again, the suggestion to drive the case into the chamber, included doing it a second time, but wraped with paper.The reason for the paper is because of the spring back you experienced(paper is not sacred, you could try file label, tape, etc.).BTY, a sharp carbide cutting tool( for the lathe) will cut hardened loading dies, if you can't find a file trim die. If you turn the loading die into a 7/8-14 split threading die and chuck the threading die into the lathe, centering with tailstock center; it should "turn true". It will "squall" at first, but after you get through the hardened part, that should stop.If you decide to sacrifice a loading die, it doesn't have to be full length. A shorter one should be easier, due to less friction. If one "sticks" in the die, don't pull the rim off, drop a punch down the case and drive it out while putting pressure on it with the ram at the same time. If you have or know someone who has the ability to do this, it may be easier to do as Sharps4590 suggested and just make a die from a 7/8-14 bolt( you can still chuck it with a threading die).
Mike