I'm looking at a Christoph Funk Sporter

[sbakf]

The idea of the light alloy scope tubes with mounting rib underneath was protected by Hensoldt, Wetzlar, in 1932 by a DRGM. The 4x Dural - Dialytan scopes were first advertized by Hensoldt in February 1934. The 6x DURALYT scopes came later. So scope and mount tops can not be original to a pre-WW1 rifle. – AXEL

So, although it’s probable/possible the claw mount scope bases are circa 1912 (i.e., original to the rifle), the vertical posts (clawed bottom/dovetail slotted top) and Hensoldt 6X scope are vintage (say) 1935 – 1945. Course, I have no way of knowing when this scope package was actually added to the rifle. It might have been installed either as new (e.g., 1930's) or it could have taken place last year after an ebay purchase (e.g., http://www.ebay.com/itm/111588169551...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT).

As Hensoldt-Wetzlar had a DRGM on this scope tube design (i.e., scope with integrated dovetailed mounting rail), did they also make the clawed vertical mounts for this scope tube design?

Another question, somewhat related. I was looking at a number of things on ebay last night – one being vintage German scopes and their mounts. Of particular note was the number of scopes and mounts that looked very similar (some near identical) in design to mine. Most of these, however, didn’t carry the Hensoldt-Wetzlar tag on the scope tube. Was Hensoldt-Wetzlar to scopes as Mauser was to bolt actions? That is, did they license others (e.g., Robert Geller and K.G. Giessen, Schmidt & Bender) to manufacture/market their product/design?


MY GUNS - GERMAN SCOPE LIKE MINE $_57.jpg
German Claw mount scope, made by Robert Geller and K.G. Giessen 4X (pre-WWII)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271834205183...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT



DSC02779.jpg (CROP AND COMPRESS).jpg
Scope mounted to my rifle, Hensoldt-Wetzlar 6X

[Axel E]

"As Hensoldt-Wetzlar had a DRGM on this scope tube design (i.e., scope with integrated dovetailed mounting rail), did they also make the clawed vertical mounts for this scope tube design?"

No. German optical companies made scopes only, not mounts. Mount parts were usually bought in from several makers in the Suhl area and elsewhere. These claw mount parts were available in many stages of completion, but most often they still needed hand fitting by a competent gunsmith. Most often gunsmithes bought the rough parts in the white. These usually came with only the top end halfway complete, that is, rings, half-rings or dovetails for taking the scope and –on rear rings- the side adjustment already machined, but the bottom simply a solid block of steel. The gunsmith then had to file out the claws, file the block to heigth and fit evrything to the bases. Some of the specialized mount makers were A.W. Triebel, Suhl; Robert Triebel, Suhl; Fritz Albrecht, Adolf Reich in Albrechts near Suhl. AKAH also provided most of these "Gestecke" = parts sets to the trade.

" Of particular note was the number of scopes and mounts that looked very similar (some near identical) in design to mine. Most of these, however, didn’t carry the Hensoldt-Wetzlar tag on the scope tube. Was Hensoldt-Wetzlar to scopes as Mauser was to bolt actions? That is, did they license others (e.g., Robert Geller and K.G. Giessen, Schmidt & Bender) to manufacture/market their product/design?"

Hensoldt had their mounting rib design and scope designs protected by DRGMs only. Such protection ended after 6 years. So from 1938 on the Hensoldt aluminum + rib design was in the public domain. Most smaller scope companies copied the Hensodt scope designs. So you see Hensoldt lookalikes by Geller, MSW, Kaps, Köhler and other smaller companies. (Schmidt & Bender is post-WW2 only) In quality, differences ar minor only. From 1942 on the 4x Hensoldt steel tube design was standadized by the Wehrmacht as the ZF34 sniper scope. All the small scope makers had to make scopes to this design. The Hensoldt mounting rib on the light alloy scopes became the industry standard until about 1990. Competing 1930s designs like the Zeiss "Patentklemme" or Seibert's designs became little known curiosities.

[Dan Patch]

Axel: the apparent barrel makers mark I mentioned earlier in this thread isn't the HK mark you pictured in post 38 but rather is a very clear capital K followed by an equal mark (=), both within a rhombus. In this case there are two rhombuses, one above another, followed by KRUPP-STAHL. The scope-sighted sporting Mauser taken into German military service in WW.I with the marking D over 771 (I believe I have that number correct) seen on the web has a very similar barrel marking, with two rhombus figures followed by the KRUPP-STAHL marking. In this latter case I can't make out the markings, if any, within the rhombuses. Dan

[ellenbr]

Does it resemble the above?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Dan Patch]

Raimey: Yes, this is very close except the equal sign to the right of the K isn't present. On the rifle barrel the geometrical forms are stacked one above the other, rather than being side by side. Of course, the rifle barrel having flats and the shotgun barrels being round plays a role in that difference. Any idea of the age of the shotgun barrels? The rifle is about 1910. Dan

[ellenbr]

That equals sign you mention must be a worn mark of some other character that results in resembling an equals sign?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Here's another but I still haven't found the image I'm looking for & I believe it to be of marks on one of Baumgarten's sporting weapons.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

As I wrote before for the GGCA it is not possible any more to positively identify these tiny barrelmaker's marks. These marks were never protected or registered, as they were only meant for information inside the guntrade. Further, some men used different marks for different customers, others were used by several men over time. Sometimes competing barrelmakers from Suhl and Zella – Mehlis used very similar marks. There were simply too many "K" barrel makers active during overlapping times in Suhl and Z-M, besides the well-known Louis and Wilhelm Kelber: Keller, Edmund, Z-M; Keller, Wilhelm,S; Kellermann,Hugo, Z-M; Kind, Otto,Z-M; Kirchner, Hugo, S; Kleffel, Ferdinand, S; Klett, Emil, S; Klett,Hans,S; Klett, Hans-Hermann, S; Klett, Heinrich Christoph, S and Z-M (2 men with that name?); Kolb, Oswald, Z-M; Koenig, Julius, Z-M; Krieger & Gnaedig, S (maybe a hint: their larger logo was a K inside a squarish G). All these were listed as "Laufhersteller" = true barrel makers, or "Laufzieher" = barrel riflers, not merely "Rohrmacher" = barrel filers. And Heinrich Krieghoff had his own barrelmaking department. So pinpointing all these small K marks to certain barrelmakers is guessing only, maybe more or less educated, IMHO.

[sbakf]

That S on the side of the receiver ring is mysterious to me. … On the other hand that S resembles the S stamped on top of the receiver ring of M88/S and M88/05 rifles converted for using the 8x57IS cartridge by opening up chamber and throat. A further hint may be found in the 1934 RWS handbook, page 38: "If one wants to shoot the 8mmS bullets with the larger diameter from a barrel built for the long-bullet 8x57I cartridge, he should not miss to have the neck area of the chamber and the throat opened up by a gunsmith." This alteration may have been done to the rifle, either

??) in early 1915 by a military armorer, before the recall and inspection, (??

or in the 1930s by the civilian gunsmith who mounted the new Hensoldt light alloy scope on the pre-WW1 bases.

-- Axel



That S on the side of the receiver ring is mysterious to me.

Unbelievable! Presented with 2 rifles within 3 years, both with identical receiver markings (per descriptions) and the meaning of the big “S” remains a mystery to … - us all.


Mauser calibre ?
04/29/12 11:35 AM
I have recently agreed to purchase a 98 Mauser done up in what I would call "Germanic" style, DSTs, half hex half round barrel, full rib, flattened bolt handle but I digress. Will take some pics. after I have it in hand. The ? is calibre, on the LR it's marked as follows - 2,5gGBP and a large S - is this an 8x60 vs an 8x57? or does the S have another meaning? Any comments appreciated. --- John303
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...rue#Post207835


John303’s thread was rather short and pictures of his receiver ring were never posted. I sent him a note a couple of weeks back asking if he ever found out the meaning of the big/large “S” and requesting some photos, but I never got a response. Axel – I gather John303 sent you some photos of his rifle, might you still have one stored showing his receiver ring “S” stamp? Is it the same (size wise) as mine?

MY CHRISTOPH FUNK SPORTER: LEFT SIDE RECEIVER RING

DSC02611.jpg (COMPRESSED).jpg


Note:
The Mauser action number for John303’s rifle is 51354 (early 1912) - mine is stamped 49386 (late 1911). These production dates are relatively close, but of what (if any) significance rests with them, I leave to other IMHO’s.



SOMETHING FOUND:
Variants[edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_1888

At the time of adoption, the M/88 "Patrone 7.9 mm" was loaded with a 14.6 g (226 gr) round nose bullet that measured 8.08 mm (.318 in) in diameter. In 1894/95 the German Army changed the barrel specifications from 7.9/8.1 mm to 7.9/8.2 mm hoping to improve the accuracy and Gewehr 88 rifles made from that date on had different bores. The 8.08 mm (.318 in) bullet diameter however remained unchanged. After 1895 most Gewehr 1888 rifles were regrooved. In 1905, the Germany Army adapted a new service cartridge that fired lighter bullets measuring 8.20 mm (.323 in) in diameter. From then on, many Gewehr 88 rifles where rechambered to fire the new 1905 pattern 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge becoming Gewehr 88/05 rifles.[1] This rechambering required more work as the 7.92x57mm Mauser chambering requires a wider chamber throat to take the thicker brass of the new 1905 pattern cartridge. Gewehr88/05 adapted rifles have the receiver marked with a large "S" rollmark and were also converted to use the Gewehr 98 type stripper clip by adding stripper clip guides to the top rear of the receiver and altering the magazine.


Note: First understand, I don’t have the eye of an experienced gunsmith, but the rifling of my FUNK sporter doesn’t appear near as robust as what I see in the barrel of my J.P. Sauer sporter (8X57I). Although the bores in both rifles appear relatively bright and shiny, the bore of the FUNK barrel shows less contrast in elevation between its lands and grooves. It’s almost like looking down the bore of one of my Marlin microgroove barrels.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fr...ve-barrels.htm

I’m guessing this FUNK rifle has been shot way more often than my Sauer. It’s probably still a good shooter, but putting a few rounds through it will tell me more. Just need to find out what to load it with.


Axel – from what you said above and what can be read via a Google search, I’d imagine my FUNK sporter was altered to accommodate the 8X57IS round (perhaps even a 8X60S ?? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8%C3%9760mm_S). Slugging the barrel and making a chamber cast is something that needs doing.

In forum posting I’ve seen on converted rifles, the “S” mark is usually mentioned and I’ve seen but a few photo examples. In each case, however, the “S” stamping is sized smaller and placed either on the barrel or the topside of the receiver ring. Course, my rifle and John303’s were both originally fitted with a dovetailed scope base to their receiver ring. Additionally, both our rifles have octagon-to-round tapered barrels. Perhaps the left-side receiver ring (next to the old nitro proof) was the best location to mark/denote a converted rifle. What does “marked with a large "S" rollmark” describe – what is a rollmark (vs stamp) and how would it have been done to these finished, complex (multiple line breaks) rifles?


P.S.

John303’s rifle also had one of those jagged-circled K’s stamped to its barrel – only one vs two on mine.

MY GUNS - MAUSER BARREL WITH CIRCLED K - M-SN 51384 - 10548842ww.jpg


Two other stampings adjacent to the staple on my FUNK barrel. I don’t know what they mean, but they’re there – just showing a photo of each (FYI).

DSC02578.jpg

DSC02579.jpg (COMPRESSED).jpg

[ellenbr]

John303's is stamped "Ideal Gun" adjacent to the jagged encircled K? Looks like they kept the effort in the Schilling family.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Dan Patch]

Steve: Do both the Funk and the Sauer have four groove rifling? Dan

[sbakf]

Do both the Funk and the Sauer have four groove rifling? Dan

Yes on four groove rifling - and a look-to-see leads me to retract an earlier statement. First impressions can be wrong - a photo comparison (vs eyeballing) of the rifling in both barrels shows them to be near equal in condition. I can't say how their rifling compares to new, but I'm sure they're both showing some age - centenarian they are.

J.P. SAUER & SOHN S/N 79000
BARREL BORE

BARREL BORE PHOTO - SAUER 79000 DSC02090.jpg (COMPRESSED).jpg



CHRISTOPH FUNK S/N 24114
BARREL BORE

BARREL BORE PHOTO - FUNK 24114 DSC02895.jpg (COMPRESSED).jpg

[sbakf]

German optical companies made scopes only, not mounts. Mount parts were usually bought in from several makers in the Suhl area and elsewhere. These claw mount parts were available in many stages of completion, but most often they still needed hand fitting by a competent gunsmith. Most often gunsmithes bought the rough parts in the white. These usually came with only the top end halfway complete, that is, rings, half-rings or dovetails for taking the scope and –on rear rings- the side adjustment already machined, but the bottom simply a solid block of steel. The gunsmith then had to file out the claws, file the block to heigth and fit evrything to the bases. Some of the specialized mount makers were A.W. Triebel, Suhl; Robert Triebel, Suhl; Fritz Albrecht, Adolf Reich in Albrechts near Suhl. AKAH also provided most of these "Gestecke" = parts sets to the trade.


Axel,

I really appreciate this background info (history) on claw mounts. I saw my first example of such back in summer of 1963. On a visit with my dad to the local Rod & Gun Club (Wiesbaden, West Germany), met and talked to a fella picking up his new bolt action 270 cal. He had bought it a month or so before, but had had it sent out for some custom work - German style. I can’t remember the brand, but thinking it started off as a rather Plain-Jane FN Mauser. The stock had been reworked a bit with some (I thought gaudy) carved sections and a couple of nice silver leaf inlays, but what really stood out for me was this big (humongous) scope saddled to a quick-release mounting system – the German claw mount. I had never seen anything like it. As my only hunting rifle at the time was a 35 cal Marlin 336 (with a Weaver 4X scope and screw-on mounts), I remember thinking – someday I’ll have one of those. Let’s see, 1963 to 2015 – it only took me 52 years.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Based on what you have said, I’m inclined to believe all the scope parts above the receiver bases (c. 1912) were installed as a new assemblage sometime in 1930’s. Course, my inclination doesn’t make it so. There are other possibilities, but the likelihood of this scope setup coming off ebay last year seems rather remote. I say this only because the fit of the clawed feet to their bases is just too good – like the fit of a surgical glove. There’s no wiggle on insertion and once the cam lever is closed, it’s like a welded joint between receiver and post.

Again - THANKS!