I'm looking at a Christoph Funk Sporter

[sbakf]

Raimey,

I tried enhancing, but picture still isn't clear. I'll ask seller to send another photo.


Seller responded - take a look and tell me what you see.

IMG_2841.JPGIMG_2846.JPGIMG_2850.jpgIMG_2850.jpg ENHANCED.jpgIMG_2850.jpg CROP AND ROTATE.jpg



SOMETHING FOUND (1):

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/print...35&type=thread

kuduae
(.375 member)
05/19/12 08:02 AM

Re: Mauser calibre ?

The "K in gear" may be a mark of the Suhl barrelmaker family Kelber. 7.7mm is the bore diameter at the time of proof. It may have been just short of 7.8mm, as it was measured using cylindrical gages. You have to add the groove depth. This marking is correct for the 8x57I with .318" bullets. The CROWN - crown/N proofmarks indicate pre-1923 proof using the "4000atm" special proof powder. As the bore diameter is given in mm and there are no other numbers, the gun was proofed in Suhl post-April 1, 1912.

[mike ford]

Steve,
I see now, the mark is a crown N -makes sense. Plum color comes from hot bluing cast steel or other alloys without accounting for the alloy with heat control/time. Often it is colored black as desired, but starts to turn later. The steel in the reciever was common alloy, so it didn't discolor.The "S" seems to be the same font as applied to military rifles chambered for 8x57I (mostly m88 commision rifles, but also early 98s)when the "IS" cartridge was adopted and older rifles were inspected/modified for it's use. This would be a different discussion, however.
Mike

[sbakf]

Plum color comes from hot bluing cast steel or other alloys without accounting for the alloy with heat control/time. Often it is colored black as desired, but starts to turn later. The steel in the reciever was common alloy, so it didn't discolor.

Mike,

So - how were these old German sporters blued originally? Is the two-tone color we (I) now see for many of these old rifles (i.e., plum barrel with blue receiver, trigger/magazine assembly parts & barrel sights) the expected norm or does it represents a later rebluing job done incorrectly (i.e., ... without accounting for the alloy with heat control/time.)?

My Sauer:
DSC01882.jpg

Funk Mauser:
IMG_2850.jpg


SOMETHING FOUND (1):

http://rugerforum.net/ruger-single-a...ed-bluing.html

June 27th, 2013, 03:39 PM #10
Iowegan
Retired Gunsmith

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Blair, NE
Posts: 9,271

jmichael1982, Plum color on Ruger frames, loading gates and cylinders is quite common with older guns. It's actually a defect but many people ... especially collectors go nuts over defective bluing jobs.

Here's the skinny ... bluing salts are added to pure water to form a "super saturated solution". When mixed to the proper proportions, it goes to a low boil at 292 deg F, which is the ideal temperature for hot bluing tanks. Water boils at 212 deg F so you have to keep adding water or the solution will get too strong. If the solution is not carefully controlled where either the temperature gets too high or too much water boils off, the gun will come out of the tanks with a plum color.

Further, Ruger uses molybdenum in their frames, cylinders, and loading gate alloys. This strengthens the metal but has a nasty side affect ... in time, a nice bluing job will turn plum colored. Some times it takes several years for the plum color to show up ... sometimes it never does show up.

So ... a combination of the two above conditions ... older Ruger SAs could come right out of the box with a plum color or may turn plum in a few years .... either way, it's a defect in the bluing process that can be avoided. Ruger now uses an additive in their bluing tanks that prevent plum coloring. Brownell's sells it as "S" additive. BTW, you rarely see plum barrels because they are a different steel alloy.


SOMETHING FOUND (2):

http://www.shotguns.se/html/sauer_information.html

In the early 1890's:

Sauer introduce Krupp Special steel in four different types:

1. Krupp laufstahl

2. Special Gewehr Laufstahl, Fried.Krupp A.G. Essen.

3. Krupp-Inerso-Laufstahl.

4. Fried.Krupp A.G. Essen Nirosta.

[mike ford]

Steve,
They were sometimes rustblued, but bolt guns were usually hot blued.When I see the discoloring, I usually think it was reblued in the US, but I have seen it with German blued guns(usually parts like grip caps,etc.that are castings). Winchester mod 94, and M1 carbines with after market recievers( sometimes trigger housings) are infamous for this.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Guns and gun parts that have high nickel content are know for "plum" colors. Winchesters are natorious for this when being re blued. You rarely see plum parts from "the factory". Often times it requires a higher temp and longer cook time, sometimes along with shocking, to get them to blacken.

Have you determined if the chambering is original? I wonder if it was re chambered or refinished at some point.

[sbakf]

Mike and Nathaniel,

I have no answer as to how these part-Mauser German sporters were blued, either when new or at some later date. All I can say is both of mine (one Sauer & one Funk) are two-tone in color. Perhaps one of the wise will jump in with an answer as to how the bluing process was done initially by companies like Sauer and Funk - I know you're out there.

Axel - I know you either have some or access to some untouched, early 1900's, part-Mauser sporting rifles. Do any of them show plum colored barrels - i.e., barrels installed by the likes of Sauer and Funk?

Steve


SOMETHING FOUND (1):

YOU MIGHT WANT TO TRANSLATE THIS ARTICLE.

http://christophfunk.dk/files/3714/2...tikel_rev2.pdf

[sharps4590]

I have Sauer and Funk, Mauser actioned bolt rifles, and neither of them show the plumb. Without looking at them the best date I can give is at least the 1930's and probably earlier. Nor do I know off the top of my head whether the type of steel is stamped on them and if so, what kind. I don't believe either has been reblued, well, I know the Funk hasn't. The only interest in them to this thread is that they haven't turned plumb. Perhaps the bluing process had been changed when mine were made or the bluing took better? Of course, whether or not that's 'better' would be a matter of taste.

[Axel E]

On the bluing originally used on these Suhl pre-WW1 made Mauser aporters: At that time slow rust bluing of the barrels was in universal use in Germany. "Hot dip" immersion bluing was used f.i. by the Mauser factory only fom the mid-1930s on. Even today, most German gunsmithes prefer the old "Streichbrünierung" = slow rust blue and are not equipped for a "hot dip" process so popular in America. Usually the Suhl gunmakers then left the receiver and other parts case hardened. The old rust blue usually wears down to shades of grey. I have never seen a German steel barrel with a purple/reddish/ plum hue, unless it's a rough "patina" resulting from frequent light rusting and oiling. But a hint may be found in Brownell's "Gunsmith Kinks": If the immersion salt solution gets too hot, the bluing will take a reddish tint. This happens easily while water evaporates from the boiling blueing salts brine. This raises the salt concentration and the boiling point of the solution. So those "plum colored" barrels are most likely the result of a hot dip reblue, done in the USA postwar by men who did not have perfect heat control. The two tone color of receiver and barrel may be the result of the different reaction of the unhardened barrel and the case hardened receiver when both were immersed together into the blueing tank.

[Axel E]

Both the Sauer & Sohn and the Christoph Funk rifle were made pre-WW1, the S&S one earlier.Both rifles were proofed using the "4000 atm" special smokeless proof powder, as shown by the CROWN – crown/N proofmarks. In 1912 the Suhl proofhouse changed over from the old gauge numbers, 172.28 = .300" on the S&S, to millimeters, 7.8 mm on the Funk, for the bore/land diameter. As common before WW1, Funk built the rifle on a commercial action from the Mauser factory. The Mauser commercial serial number 49586 dates the action to 1911 according to Jon Speed's first book, OOSR. Funk bought in the barrel from one of the three Suhl barrelmakers named Klett, shown by the K in jagged circle. So I tend to date the Funk rifle to 1912.
Instead of trying to translate that article from Danish: Get Peter Ravn Lund's book on Chr. Funk from the GGCA bookstore. It's bilingual, the same text running side by side in English and German.

[mike ford]

Axel,
What is your idea about the "S" stamped on the action of the FUNK?
Mike

[sbakf]

Why are my rifles two-tone? I think now - an impossible question to answer. Abby Sciuto would be a big help, but doubt she's available for such work. Might it represent a hot-blue redo stateside - probably. Might it represent a slight error at either the Sauer or Funk works on a particular day - possibly. Might it represent some variance of the alloyants (e.g., manganese, nickel, chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, silicon, and boron) used in the barrel steel - possibly. Again, who knows. Personally, I'm starting to like this two-tone presentation. A plum barrel has a rather aesthetic appeal - kind of an faux antique shout-out.

Instead of trying to translate that article from Danish: Get Peter Ravn Lund's book on Chr. Funk from the GGCA bookstore. It's bilingual, the same text running side by side in English and German.

I didn't realize the GGCA had this book - just might buy it. What caught my eye initially after a Google translation of this article were the serial numbers by year for the J.P. Sauer hunting rifles - nice. Even more intriguing is the possibility that I may (perhaps some day soon) find out the name of the first owner of my old Sauer rifle (http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...ifle-(c-1912)).

[Dan Patch]

Rust bluing for barrels was for decades the American standard too. Winchester lever guns typically had rust blued barrels and magazine tubes, with casehardening or mixed casehardening/heat-based finishes of the charcoal or niter type on the actions. I believe Winchester dropped rust bluing by the late 1930s, but Remington continued its use as late as the Model 721 and 722 bolt actions in the early 1950s. Dan

[ellenbr]

Lovely brace of jagged encircled Ks. Axel gives one of 3 Klett mechanics while Dietrich Apel gives Louis Kelber. Not sure what info altered Axel's mind. Anyway, narrows the pool considerable on the pool of tube mechanics. There exists a couple other stamps with a slight variation.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[sbakf]

It seemed like it took forever (i.e., 16 days), but my Christoph Funk sporter arrived my location this last Wednesday morning. It was packaged well (boxed hard case) and came through unscathed. First impression – nice, but not near the level of good feelings I had on seeing my Sauer for the first time (http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...-Rifle-(c-1912). Nevertheless, I’m starting to like this rifle more and more each day.

In my first post to this thread, I mentioned there didn't seem to be a numbers link between the FUNK barrel and the Mauser action of this rifle. Well, I found one - sort of.

On my Sauer, its S/N (i.e., 79000) is stamped on the barrel (bottom) and visibly on the left side of the receiver ring (adjacent to Nitro proof). Parts of this Sauer S/N (e.g., "9000" & "000") are also stamped to internal elements of the Mauser trigger/magazine assembly. The FUNK rifle (S/N 24114, barrel bottom), in contrast, doesn’t have any full or partial FUNK S/N's stamped anywhere on its Mauser action. It does, however, have its full S/N 24114 stamped to the front edge of the rear claw mount base. This would seem to suggest the claw mount bases are original to this rifle (i.e., circa 1912).


I'll need some more expertise (opinions) before I can possibly date the remaining scope/mounting parts. (see attached photos)

DSC02657.jpg (CROPPED).jpgDSC02527.jpg (compressed).jpgDSC02528.jpg (compressed).jpgDSC02558.jpg (compressed).jpgDSC02559.jpg (compressed).jpg

[sbakf]

More Scope/Mount Photos: #1

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1911[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1912[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1913[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1914[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1915[/ATTACH]