Something different: Question about Savage 1912 semi auto

[chapmen]

Maybe someone can help?

By researching about the Schmeisser Semi Auto .22 Mod 1912 i found pics of the savage semi auto.

Schmeisser: (mag is missing)



Savage:



As far as i know the savage is also called model 1912?
Is there existing an US patent on this savage model?

[Dan Patch]

Yes, the Savage is a model of 1912. It looks offhand as though the big difference between the two, other than the Schmeisser's pistol grip stock, is that the Savage has a conventional cocking handle while the Schmeisser seems to have a Winchester 1903 type plunger at the tip of the foreend. The big screw on the Savage is for takedown purposes, so maybe moving the cocking handle permitted it to be moved up a bit in the Schmeisser? I have no idea of the patents covering the Savage, but anything you learn would be very interesting to hear about. Dan

p.s. Arthur Savage himself designed the Savage 99 high-power lever action rifle, but the Savage auto pistol was designed by Elbert Searle. Perhaps there's a Searle-Schmeisser connection?

[Axel E]

It looks offhand as though the big difference between the two is that the Savage has a conventional cocking handle while the Schmeisser seems to have a Winchester 1903 type plunger at the tip of the foreend.

No, I found a photo of another Schmeisser1912. The Schmeisser too has a conventional cocking handle. The projection on the Schmeisser foreend merely seems to be a foreend fastening and takedown throughbolt.

[Axel E]

Here is the ad from the 1912 Akah catalog and a translation of sorts:



This new automatic small-bore rifle, with detachable magazine for 7 cartridges, is co"mpletely machine made by one of the most renowned Suhl gun factories, which manufactures for the German Army too (Haenel? AE), and is because of it's stunning simplicity, superb accuracy, low noise, and the cheapness of the ammo, available everywhere, suitable for these uses:
as house and garden rifle, as sport- and training rifle for cadets and shooting clubs with shorter indoor ranges .
This rifle may serve also as a hunting rifle for certain species of feathered game.
An especially advantageous use this 7 shot, quick-firing arm will find as a so-called off season rifle, especially with forest officers, whom it may serve in emergencies as an effective defense weapon against poachers, helped by filled extra magazines.
An easy barrel takedown, without use of any tool, allows not only a good cleaning, but a convenient packing for shipping and travel too.
As the breech parts may be disassembled without the use of tools too, the parts and spaces subject to fouling in use may be easily inspected and cleaned, resulting in enduring and sure function of the gun."
7101 Automatic rifle, system Schmeisser, .22long smokeless as described above
7102 same, pistolgrip and foreend checkered (the rifle looks more elegant)
The rifles are sighted with cartridges .22 long, smokeless, trademark R (RWS) and are guarantied for function and so on only if this brand of ammo is used.

[Dan Patch]

By googling the words "Savage Model 1912" and "Schmeisser" a couple of threads from forums several years ago will bring up comments the relationship of the Schmeisser and Savage rifles and a couple of other arms makers which won't really answer anything but will present some interesting early 22 repeaters.

[Peter K]

By "automatic" do they mean a new cartridge is loaded automatically after each pull of the trigger? That would be a semi-automatic action in modern North American parlance or is this really a fully automatic Schmeisser?

[Axel E]

It's a semi-automatic, German Selbstlader in modern parlance, both North American and German.

[chapmen]

Many thanks for the input.
For me the both are in the basics extremly near in construction and design.
Especially the mag looks quite same.
One more mystery in the history of rifles.....

[Peter K]

Chapmen, have you contacted Savage for their reaction to this look alike question? Are the actions the same, etc? Who designed the Savage? What US patent covers this Savage rifle? Lots of questions to pursue.
Peter

[Steve Whitley]

Fascinating. It would take a good bit of research to determine which of Schmeisser's patents is involved here, if it isn't marked on the rifle. Just a glance at those renewed/retained on DEPATIS.net is overwhelming---even if one limits the search to German patents alone. It could pertain to merely one patent (safety, loading system, extractor, etc. etc.) or multiple patents. I will bet Axel's guess of Haenel is correct, due to the financial connection and collaboration there. Thanks for sharing this interesting piece.

Steve Whitley

[chapmen]

I have gone through depatis with several search strings, found nothing.
Even i havent find any info on an patent by savage, as far as i can research us patents.
Also i have contacted Savage, but no response till now.
It will take a few days till the Schmeisser will arrive, more pics will follow.
The sad thing is that the Schmeisser is rare in Germany, but the savage is even rarer.
So it will be hard to get an Savage to compare them 1:1.