Gehmann-Konstanz 5.6 x 61 vom Hofe

[kurtvn]

testing how to post a pic...5.6x61 barrel marking.jpg

[kurtvn]

The markings on the bottom of the barrel are faint.

As near as I can make out they are:
250
M SCHMIT 7- {too faint to read}
59

Near the receiver ring there are what appear to be initials in script: G.M.5.6x61 barrel markings 1.jpg5.6x61 barrel markings 2.jpg5.6x61 barrel markings 3.jpg5.6x61 barrel markings 4.jpg

[mike ford]

kurtvn,
I opine that your rifle was put together, after the war, using a G33-40 action and a "take off" Walter Moritz barrel.The original proof marks seen to have been ground off( in the area where you say it's too faint to read). The original caliber markings would have been in this area and the current caliber markings seem to be in an entirely different font, and were likely added later.The script initials seem to be original to the barrel.This could have been done in the US, at anytime after the war, or in Germany during the time before proofhouses went back into operation and unemployed gunsmiths would build a rifle for a GI in return for a carton of cigarettes.My vote would be it was done in US,few GIs would have one built in 5.6x61. I have more than one rifle built up like this using barrels someone changed out for one chambered for a caliber they could buy ammo for in the Malmart.Everyone knows what opinions are like, I would be interested if Axel has a different one.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

I would be very surprised that anyone would build a 5.6x61 in the states. I suppose having an existing barrel would be cause to assemble a rifle from pieces, but such an uncommon caliber, it would certianly take a European arms enthusiast.

I do question the removed markings. It could have been from polishing (unlikely) but why bother removing the at all, if built in the US? I would prefer to retain the for originality. Most in the US wouldn't bother to obliterate them since they mean nothing here relative to Germany.

I had a good chuckle at the OGCA show when I was informed that .25-06 was such an odd caliber.

[Diz]

kurtvn,

Could we see a few pictures of the whole thing together?

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Nathaniel,
This was only an opinion, but based on experience. If a gunsmith was brought a war trophy rifle with nice engraving,set triggers,lever release floor plate, etc.and asked to build a custom 270 with American style stock; he would quite happily do so. Something like this would leave not only a barrel, but a stock also.These could then be given to a friend or sold at the shop or in a gunshow. I, myself, have come up with such common American caliber barrels(not all with stocks) as 9x57,9.3x62,8x60,6.5x57, in this manner.It may take a European arms enthusiast, but after all we are discussing this on a forum full of them. While I can't agree,I have heard many people complain about proof marks, especially when they show.Sometimes they are removed while removing damage to the barrel caused by removing it with a pipe wrench. I have a tipup single shot rifle that had the marks removed and polished out quite well, when a poor reboring/rechambering job was done.I have learned to not be surprised by these kinds of modifications, done in the US.On the otherhand, if it was done in Germany, the gunsmith would have been required to have it reproofed or face severe results for failing to do so. As mentioned in a previous post,there was a short time when proofhouses were not really avaliable and work was done "under the table".During this time the country was under the control of whichever military government controled the zone involved, rather than a German government.
On the other hand, I am not so hardheaded as to believe I can't be wrong and am willing to hear counter arguments. Like Diz, I too would like to see an overall photo of the rifle.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Mike,

I too have seen some horrible things done to these beautiful rifles. My statements were not to say you were wrong, but just to say I would be surprised if true. I forget the stupid things people often do with these arms. I remember a customer who brought me an Oberndorf GEW 98 that his grandfather brought back from WWI. It was not mint, but a nice rifle, all matching, no "duffle cut" as most WWII rifles were, he wanted it drilled and tapped for a scope. Since it was a family heirloom it had no "value" to him.

Sad, really.

Wish I could find some of those barrels and stocks! I've got several nice actions looking for a home.

[Axel E]

I agree with Mike. G 33/40 Actions were not availble before 1945. A German gunsmith had no reason 1945-51 to tear apart a 5.6x61 rifle, if some stock of ammo were still availble. Making of 5.6x61 SE v.Hofe cartridges was resumed in 1955 only, when the German proof laws were in full force again. By 1951, American "liberating" of guns had ended, as it was legal again for Germans to own guns. So Mike's is the remaining, logical explanation: An east German retailed rifle in 5.6x61 SE v.Hofe, liberated right at the end of war when large parts of eastern Germany were conquered by the US Army, a few weeks later handed over to the Soviets. Brought back to America and rebarreled to an available US caliber. The stray barrel later mated to a G 33/40 action by some enthusiast or experimenter.

[mike ford]

Nathaniel,
There may be some of those barrels around, but they would be less common than years ago. Now, most young people are more interested in "black guns" than having a nice bolt action built. Also,surely there can't be that many more "war trophy" rifles left that aren't in a collection.There have been a good number of rifles imported from Sweden recently, some of them have been made into custom rifles and barrels may be made avaliable from them( my own 9.3x62 was one such barrel, as was the stock). I suggest you concentrate on older gunsmiths that have been in business a long time, and ask to go through their "take off "barrels. I used to check first for barrels that the muzzles showed Octagonal form with integral rib/front sight, etc.These bores aren't likely to be in good shape,if good, they would have been gone long ago. An exception might be .318" 8mm barrels that people are afraid of.This diameter barrel is really no problem. For the ones with poor bores, it would be a lot cheaper to have then rebored than have a barrel blank contoured to the same profile.Also, check out any bare barrel you see in a gunshow; these are more likely to have good bores. Many have small thread diameter, however,and actions will be rarer( the threads can be "bushed" so as to be unnoticable, however).
Mike

[kurtvn]

Mike & Axel,
Applying Occam's Razor, I think the most likely ancestry of this rifle is that of a take-off barrel mated to a G33/40 action here in the US by an enthusiast rather than a master gunmaker -- and this guess is supported by the fact the rounds don't feed well from the magazine.
A second likely scenario is the one Axel describes (and supported by stories my father, who was with the American occupying troops in 1945 Berlin, has related about the freewheeling and chaotic environment with cigarettes as currency5.6x61 receiver.jpgG33 40 5.6x61 left.jpgG33 40 5.6x61 right.jpg)

[kurtvn]

My thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion. It has been a pleasure, gentlemen.

kurtvn

[Diz]

kutrvn,

That is a very unusual piece but looks in nice condition. If the bore is good maybe you should just shoot it. Is the serial number really 772? That's a pretty low number but I don't know what that means with German guns. If you decide to load for it I would be happy to help anyway I can.

Thanks, Diz

[kurtvn]

Hello all,
I thought I would follow up with the latest I've discovered about this rifle following a trip to master gun maker, Joe S. It looks like your collective detective work and the hypothesis about it being put together by an enthusiast were correct.

Joe was able to resolve the feeding-from-the-magazine issues with a bit of file work & polishing on the extractor and soon had it loading and ejecting a full magazine without problems using the box of reloads I got with the rifle.

Meanwhile I was looking over the box of reloads on Gehmann brass that I got with the rifle. I noticed that there were what looked like oil dents on the shoulder of nearly every round and that some also showed cracks in the brass at the base of the neck. I thought this was strange. Then we tried running a few rounds of original DWM ammo thru the magazine --and they wouldn't chamber. They were too long. When we compared the single empty case (from the reloads) I had fired in the rifle, by eyeball alone you could see the reloaded cases were somewhat shorter than the originals to the shoulder. Ah Ha! It seemed clear what had happened. When the enthusiast who assembled the rifle put the 5.6x61 barrel on it, he had to cut off at least one of the barrel threads, and this shortened the chamber. He apparently did not have a reamer to address this and tried shortening the reloads by setting the shoulder back on the cases the requisite amount. This was apparently done without annealing the brass first, which caused the oil dents and cracks. So what I really have is a 'custom wildcat' 5.6x?? with a shortened vHse profile .

My solution is to buy a reamer and do it right (and throw away those reloads...)

best,
kurtvn

[Nathaniel Myers]

Kurt,

Purchasing a reamer and gauges(or use a round) is probably the best solution. I would recommend one alternative. You may consider having a set of custom dies made off of a chamber casting.

In theory, if the enthusiast did a decent job (which is questionable) the chamber should be in the neighborhood of .083 short. Try measuring your cases and see if this is close or not.

[Diz]

kurtvn,

Just a quick question about the round you fired. Did it show any excessive expansion in the head area? I am wondering about how much unsupported case might be sticking out of that modified barrel.

Thanks, Diz