Gehmann-Konstanz 5.6 x 61 vom Hofe

[collath]

wernerhelm, Sisk made a very good bullet back in the day and those are almost collector items now. There are Hornady .227"/70 grain bullets available but they are a bit fragile for the vH. You will see boxes of old bullets in this diameter at gun shows occasionally because that caliber was more popular back then. I would really like to see some photos of your rifle when you get a chance. Thanks, collath

[wernerhelm]

I've gotten lucky on finding about 5 boxes of the Sisk bullets. A guy was selling them because he had bought them to reload and after the purchase he figured out the .227 would not work for his .223.
Lucky me and they were about an hours drive away so I jumped on them. I occasionally see the on Gunbroker also.
I also purchased the hornady so I guess I'll list them to sell.
I purchased 25-06 brass to form and some I bought are not labeled. As for buying brass to re-form, what brand is preferred? I have some Remington and Norma cases.
thanks in advance
wernerhelm

[collath]

wernerhelm,

You are in fine shape for bullets but shooting will tell the tale. It's hard to say how heavy the jackets are on those old Sisk's but I would assume they are fairly light for varmit hunting. That could be a problem as was stated earlier in this post. I have used Remington cases with good results and I think there are pictures of some in this post along with some common problems. It is my opinion that Norma is the best as far as consistency goes but if you use the same lot of what ever they are usually close enough. One thing that I failed to mention earlier is that dies are sometimes made using a 30-06 base size reamer and this will constantly resize the case back to original 06 sizes. This is a real pain after they have been fired and works the heck out of the brass. I have a set of CH4D made like this and an RCBS neck set that was still too small at the base. I ended up polishing it out until it just barely moved anything but the neck.You may want to ask the question before you order a set. Anneal and go slow bringing the shoulder in and you shouldn't have any trouble. See an earlier post by Mike for a tip on keeping the base centered for fire forming. Send me your phone number if you like and we can talk more about it.

Thanks, collath

[collath]

Mike,

Good news, your bullets arrived and I managed to get one resized before my fingers stopped working. Attached is a piX of the original 80 grain Nosler BTHP on top one of your rimmed cases and the resized bullet on the bottom.

Mike's Stuff.jpg

I went with the rebated because starting with BT's it's easier and I feel you end up with a more accurate bullet being held on tapers as you bump things up. Also, just so you know you will measure about a 0.001" taper on these, getting small towards the nose as my dies are made this way. I think this also helps center the bullet in the rifling and tends to help lower pressures a bit. So if it warms a bit I should get them done for you this week.

Thanks, collath

[mike ford]

collath,
Thanks,
I trust your expertise on this.Don't worry about taking a little time, I don't intend to try them until it gets warm either.
Mike

[wernerhelm]

Collath
I'll send a pm shortly with my phone #.
thanks
wernerhelm

[kurtvn]

Collath & Mike

I recently got a 5.6x61 but haven't tried it out yet. I have 2 kinds of .228 CNC turned bullets from Cutting Edge Bullets that I had them make for my Sav 99 in 22 HP. The 60 hollowpoints were designed for expansion at 22 HP velocities, and I was able to take a mule deer buck last season using one. The other .228 bullet is a 70 gr solid -- I was thinking to use this for my 5.6 .

I called Huntingtons to try and get some Horneber brass, but they said they wouldn't be carrying that brand anymore. Do you know of another US source for Horneber brass?

As for loads, I have an article for reloading the 5.6x61 vHse from Rifle Magazine No.13 Jan.-Feb. 1971 titled 'The Amazing 5.6x61 Vom Hofe' by Al Miller. Any pointers on loads?

thanks

[Diz]

kurtvn,

Congratulations on your new acquisition. You are about to take quite an adventure. Horneber brass is hard to find especially in vom Hofe SE. Huntington was my source but they are pretty much gone. The only other I know is custombrassandbullets.com but you will have to special order it and I can't say if they are around anymore either. It can be made from 25-06 without TOO MUCH trouble. I say that because it isn't the easiest either. Make sure the dies you get are based on the actual vH case dimensions because I have two sets that must have been cut with 30-06 base size and one was a neck only die! The solid bullet should work but be careful due to that it may be much harder than a lead cored bullet and may have a longer bearing surface as well. Both factors contribute to higher pressures. My best results to date have been with H-870 powder but it has been discontinued and is hard to find. I have been working with several others but don't have anything I completely trust just yet. I am not sure about the particular article you mention but Al Miller was pretty reliable. If you form from 25-05 watch the OAL and case neck thickness to be sure you have enough clearance. Other than that anneal the case well and go very slowly with forming or you will have trouble with the shoulder.

Mike has a lot of experience with the rimmed version and I am sure he can add a lot to this.

What is the rifle and maybe a few pictures, etc. would be good.

Thanks, Diz (formally collath)

[mike ford]

kurtvn,
My impression is, your rifle is a bolt gun, therefore chambered for the rimless version. If so, Diz's advice is much more appropriate.The concerns about pressure are important.I think the Cutting Edge bullets have "grooves" on the side, to help in this regard. Unless my memory fails me, Bertram also offered 5.6x61 vH rimless version cases.Diz is absolutly correct about forming cases.I think it would be helpful to set the shoulder back, in steps. I think starting with 8x57 die and then 7x57 should make it a little easier, don't forget to remove the depriming stem first. I prefer file/trim dies, but not everyone has them.If you can get them small enough to chamber, it doesn't matter if the shoulder looks funny, that will be removed in fireforming. Neck thickness is a consideration, as mentioned by Diz, but I believe starting with 26-06 instead of 30-06 is helpful in this regard.
I too would like to see photos of your rifle.
Mike

[kurtvn]

Thanks for your insights & cautions. I will pay attention.

I picked up the rifle today. It's a G 33/40 action and the top of barrel is marked 'Walther Mortiz Magdeburg' and the stock is a reworked military one -- nothing fancy, but he did a decent job of re-styling it. I'll take some pics. I have a 1 box of DWM factory ammo, and I tried feeding a round from the magazine into the chamber -- and it got hung up just before the rim slips up into the extractor -- maybe the rails needs some attention. I have some reloads coming based on '06 cases -- I want to see if they feed any better. I have the good fortune of knowing 2 really good Mauser feeding specialists, so they can likely make any feeding issues go away. Any insight to offer?

You are right about the Cutting Edge bullets having multiple raised 'belts' (sort of reverse grooves) around the bottom half of the bullet. I'll take some pics of those too.

I have a line of some Horneber brass and also some Gehmann (and now need the ATF to process my import form to bring them in from Germany...). I emailed Custom Brass & Bullets but haven't heard back.
best,
kurtvn

[mike ford]

kurtvn,
Is the rifle clearly marked 5.6x61 v Hofe? Have you actually chambered a cartridge? If not, I suggest you slip a cartridge under the extractor of the bolt, removed from the rifle, and insert the bolt back into the rifle to confirm it will chamber a 5.6x61 vHofe cartridge( you should remove the bolt shroud/firing pin assy first).I asked this because there is another 5.6mm cartidge, similar to the vom Hofe, but using .224" bullets and case with conventional headsize. If your rifle is really a 5.6x57, a 5.6x61 v Hofe cartridge may "hang up" like you describe( the 57mm case has a longer body and larger shoulder, so the interference would be at the head). If the rifle is 5.6x57, don't be disappointed as it is an interesting cartridge too, and easier to feed,with more avaliable components. BTW, if you confirm that it is 5.6x61 v Hofe, you might try loading the magazine by pushing the cartridges all the way to the rear. My 9x57, when loaded with 200 gr bullets, only feeds correctly when loaded this way( it is also a G 33-40 action). This doesn't mean there is a problem with G 33-40 actions, rather it has to do with the location of the case when it is freed from the action rails and the angle at which it enters the chamber. This would not be something that would give your specialists a problem to correct. Have I confused everyone enough yet?
Mike

[Axel E]

kurtvn, can you please post photos of your rifle, especially the action and all markings on and under the barrel? Though I know nothing about a Walther Moritz in Magdeburg, a combination of this address with a G 33-40 action is very unlikely. There were no surplus G33-40s before 1945, and Magdeburg then was in eastern Germany, first Soviet Occupation Zone, later GDR. Gun ownership, more so rifled barreled ones, was heavily restricted, if not impossible. 5.6x61 v.H. ammo was unavailable. So "Walther Moritz, Magdeburg" , "G33/40 action" and "5.6x61 v.h." simply don't fit together!

[Diz]

kurtvn,

You must have really beat the bushes to find that brass. If there should happen to be more than you need I would be happy to go in for it with you. Please let me know.

Thanks, Diz

[kurtvn]

Hi Axel,

I agree with you -- on the face of it a 33/40, Magdeburg, & 5.6x61 don't seem to fit. ( By the way, I mistakenly added an 'h' to Walter in my previous post. The gunmaker's name on the barrel reads 'Walter Moritz Magdeburg' ). The barrel is also marked Bohler Stahl ( the 'o' in Bohler has an umlaut, which I don't know how to make that from my keyboard). Pictures coming -- with assistance from my wife.

[kurtvn]

Hi Mike,

Feeding from the left rail, I cautiously chambered a round as you suggested with the firing pin removed. It chambered fine. I then reassembled the bolt, and test fired a round, using the "tie it to a tire and use a long string' method . The fired brass looks just like the loaded cartridge. pics coming...