Gehmann-Konstanz 5.6 x 61 vom Hofe

[collath]

Sharps,

I am very glad you enjoyed it. I certainly have and learned a few things along the way. The boat tail is rebated as you correctly observed. And Mike is correct about the problems with base forming tools. I believe that Richard Corbin makes the tools this way because there is more support for the base forming tool and it is less likely to expand under pressure. I swaged a standard BT with my old home made dies but the 22 magnum jackets were easier to form. I am planning to add a slight radius to the angles in the rebate as the sharp edge will sometimes cut into the jacket.

I had a bad experience with black powder as a kid. No I didn’t blow myself up but had many misfires that caused me to swear off on the stuff. I can tell you that I have devoted many years and lots of money to developing nitro loads that run at very low pressure for my old Damascus shotguns. However, I seem to be drawn back to the dark side and started loading BP in paper hulls just for one specific shotgun. There’s no going back now!

Thanks again.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I know about the hype over using chamber adapters in the 5.6x57,and making the necks thicker for this reason.I'ts just that I never bought it. I thought, the first time I saw one of the cases(about 1973),and this was reinforced by my experiences with forming 5.6x61R from 30-06R, the real reason was to avoid another manufacturing step. Of course the thicker neck would help the adapters, I just don't believe it was the primary reason. One of my forrester friends used one, and one of Walter Grass' hunting friends did also. My friend liked his and never complained about accuracy( he didn't hesitate to use it on kalb or uberlaufer). Walter's friend, however, had two accuracy problems over the years I was there.The first was rectified by recrowning the barrel.The second was only a year later,and we couldn't find any obvious reason for it. This was 1981, and since then, I've come to the conclusion that the normal 1 in 10 twist rate is right on the borderline of being too slow. If this is the case, any additional factor, such as a burr in the crown or eroded throat,may show up in group size. Even though the KS(cone point) bullet weighs 74 grains it is realitively short. A more modern 74 grain spitzer/bt bullet would likely not be stabilized by this twist.If I ever finish mine and run out of ammo, I intend to load the 60gr Partition bullet, because of this.

Collath,
The pressures calculated for the loads you mentioned above are very scary to me. My rifle is a Remo KLB that was Gene's and finding an accurate load for it was the last project we worked on together.I did the work and showed him the targets on his death bed,in hospice at home.This rifle is precious to me and I have to be careful not to do any thing that would hurt it. Did you get my PM with my contact info?
Mike

[Axel E]

[QUOTE=mike ford;5208]Axel,
I know about the hype over using chamber adapters in the 5.6x57,and making the necks thicker for this reason.[QUOTE]
So said the RWS handbooks and other contemporary German literature... RWS ought to know, as they designed the cartidge.

[collath]

Mike,

Sorry I am a little late answering. I wouldn't panic about those pressure numbers for two reasons. First they were calculated based on a 66,000 psi maximum pressure that was what Axel was talking about. So when I ran the numbers I was trying to get as close to that maximum as I could without going over. Both of the loads are compressed charges and I doubt if you could actually get that much H-870 into the case in the first place. Second, more reasonable loading's bring the pressures down dramatically in actual loading and they are both safe and accurate. My hottest load tops out at 57,000 gauged and matches well with the predicted pressures from the computer. If you have a load in mind, let me have it and I will run it. Just need all the usual info.

Also, I didn't get your PM for some reason so please resend it.

Thanks,

[mike ford]

Axel,
I knew that when I said it.
Mike

[mike ford]

collath,
OK, I tried two more times.I think it was sent this time. Does anyone know what a token is and how one expires?

If the 80 gr bullets work out, I would like loads under 3300 bar. I like to use H 4895 (I have a lot),but am not against using others,I have a good bit of 7828 also.
Mike

[collath]

Mike, I got your info this time and will be in touch. In my experience H-4895 is to fast for this cartridge but 7828 could work. I will run some trials with your numbers. What is the barrel length? Thanks, collath

[mike ford]

George,
I used 4895 when loading it to shoot the 70gr Savage HP bullet.I had to finally drop the velocity down to 3000 fps to get decent groups.The last time I saw Gene, before he passed away,I was able to show him a group that made him smile.There are a lot of cautions about using slow powers in reduced charges.Gene's load, I was trying to improve the groups on were the same bullet and 4350 for 3250 fps.I don't have anything against 4350, I just didn't want to take a chance on reduced charges with it.
Mike

[collath]

Mike,

I understand your concern but generally slow powders bulk up quit a bit and thereby take up more room in the case. At least this is what I find for powders I use. So you end up with the same volume of powder as the faster ones but at lower pressures. I usually get into a lot of debate about this but it has been my experience. I always try to keep my loading densities above 80% preferably 90% to keep the case near full. I am not in any way going to tell you what you must do. I don't do that to anyone if the load you have works well then I will endorse that and would say to stay with it.

I do have a question because you mentioned 30-06 rimmed for making vH rimmed cases but only one reference book I have shows this cartridge. It is made from .400-.350 Nitro Express brass. The only other reference I have seen is to a cartridge called a 30-06R Stief otherwise I don't know anything about them.

Also, I can make a flat base bullet as well as a rebated but I stay with flat base if I start with one to bump because I haven't had satisfactory results trying to reform a flat into a rebate. Regular BT bumped up to RBT work good.

Thanks, collath

[mike ford]

Collath,
I would just as soon have the flatbase anyway. I'm not stuck on 4895, I switched to it from 4350 because I was having to go to a reduced load, because of the bullets.
The 30-06 brass I have came from Gene. When he was the Commander of the Marksmanship Training Unit at Ft. Benning, he was given a tour of one of the ammunition manufacturing facilities. During the tour he was told that the process was set up with the rims left on the cases until the last step, because it ran better in the machinery that way. He asked for some of the cases,but was told that they couldn't let him have any. A couple weeks after returning home, a box containing a hundred cases arrived at his door, with no return address. I rebarreled a rolling block to 30-06Rimmed for a friend, but gave him some 7x65R cases to fireform(I also did a 35 Whelen Rimmed for him). I would think .400-.350 NE would be a pretty expensive way to get brass. The best source would be 7x65R,second best would be 9.3x74R(a little smaller head dia.).
Mike

[collath]

Mike, that's a very interesting story about the rimmed 06 but makes it hard to get more. I don't know how available 7x65R brass is but if it works than why not. I do see Horneber vH rimmed brass for sale occasionally and I think Huntington had some the last time I called. There is always someone selling it on gunbroker. It is interesting to me that 4895 and 4350 have the same bulk density but there is a difference in the heat of combustion. Thanks, collath

[mike ford]

collath,
Brass for 7x65R is generally pretty avaliable,but I brought a good bit back from Germany.I'm a brass "hound", and I suspect you are too.When I first started looking for 5.6x61R cases, I didn't find Horneber;but did find Bertram, which I thought was too expensive.If there was no other way to shoot the rifle, thats one thing, but if I could make useable cases much cheaper, then I will.When I was searching for a way to make "Mauser Base" or "A"base cases, I even learned how to swage rims onto rimless cases. It's all just part of the challange.
Mike

[collath]

Mike,

I am more of a brass magnet myself. But I tend to try and find the simplest cure for the loading problem if at all possible. Swaging rimless to rimmed and turning brass stock into cartridges doesn't exactly fall into that category but we do what we must to shoot these old things and that is the challenge.

I took a much closer look at the 8mm Lebel and I must say there are a couple of advantages to that case. The rim is closer to the correct diameter and it is a bit thicker than the .348 case is. However, I have 250 brand new 50 Alaskan cases now that will hold me for a very long time. But I intend to try some Lebels just for fun. Thanks for the info.

collath

[wernerhelm]

Good day. I'm a fellow 5.6X61 owner and haven't gotten my cartridges hand loaded yet. I really appreciate the information concerning this cartridge.
I was curious if any of you had loaded any new old stock bullets manufactured by R.B. Sisk. They are 70 grain and .227". I'm new here so once I figure out how to post a pic I will.

[mike ford]

collath,
I agree 100% about finding the simplest cure for cases, thats why I wound up using 45-70/90 cases for MB(A base) cases rather than swaging a rim onto a case or reducing the headsize of 8mm lebel/348( or using original length 38-55 for 8x58R or 8x57R/360).


wernerhelm,
There were some .227(or .228) Sisk bullets in the Estate I bought my rifle from, but they were sold before I had a chance to buy it. My friend had them to use in the 5.6x61R,so I can't see any reason not to try them.
Mike