8 x 58 R Sauer

[birdhunt]

Hello,
I have recently purchased Kerner and Sohn Drilling, 16 x 2 over 8 mm. Best I can determine, the gun was made between 1921 and 1928. A gunsmith did bbl casting and determined the rifle was 8 x 58 R Sauer, and the bullet size to be 0.323. However the proof mark on underside of the bbl show 7.8 mm, which as I understand is the LAND diameter of the bbl. When I get a somewhat crude measure of the land diameter at the muzzle it's approximately 0.312 or so. I am thinking I should load with 0.318 bullets, NOT the larger .323. What experience do any of you have with this issue?
Thanks

[sharps4590]

Slug the bore and remove all doubt rather than accept a crude measurement. Yes, 7,8mm is the bore diameter, not the groove.

[fuhrmann]

There was no "S" version of the 8x58R, same as the 8x57R/360 or the 8x72R.
So I'd say you are right, go with .318 bullets!

[sharps4590]

There was no "S" version of the 8x58R, same as the 8x57R/360 or the 8x72R.
So I'd say you are right, go with .318 bullets!

Learn something new every day....son-of-a-gun.

[mike ford]

The 8x58R S&S was loaded only with .318" bullets, but as with many of the other 8mms some of these rifles may accept different bullets.It is pretty common for them to accept the .320-321" 32Win.Special bullet.Every once in a while, one may surface that will accept a .323" bullet. You should "Slug" the bore to find the groove diameter. If the gunsmith gave you the chambercast and if it included part of the rifling in the barrel, you can measure it as well. If you can fire a cartridge( made up with .318" bullet or no bullet as fireforming round)which ever diameter bullet will easily fit into the unsized fired case, will be useable. The 8x57R/360 was also only loaded with .318" bullets, yet I am able to load mine with .3215" Remington 8 mm mauser bullets. Avaliable cases may be pretty expensive, but you can make useable ones from original length 38-55 cases(2.125-2.130"). New ammo is loaded in 30-30 length cases(2.080"). The 38-55 cases are a little short, but the bullets can be loaded "out", for satisfactory ammo.the 30-30 case may work, but I never tried them. Cases for the 303 Savage would match the head diameter a little better, but would be even shorter.
Mike

[birdhunt]

Thanks to all for the info

The 8x58R S&S was loaded only with .318" bullets, but as with many of the other 8mms some of these rifles may accept different bullets.It is pretty common for them to accept the .320-321" 32Win.Special bullet.Every once in a while, one may surface that will accept a .323" bullet. You should "Slug" the bore to find the groove diameter. If the gunsmith gave you the chambercast and if it included part of the rifling in the barrel, you can measure it as well. If you can fire a cartridge( made up with .318" bullet or no bullet as fireforming round)which ever diameter bullet will easily fit into the unsized fired case, will be useable. The 8x57R/360 was also only loaded with .318" bullets, yet I am able to load mine with .3215" Remington 8 mm mauser bullets. Avaliable cases may be pretty expensive, but you can make useable ones from original length 38-55 cases(2.125-2.130"). New ammo is loaded in 30-30 length cases(2.080"). The 38-55 cases are a little short, but the bullets can be loaded "out", for satisfactory ammo.the 30-30 case may work, but I never tried them. Cases for the 303 Savage would match the head diameter a little better, but would be even shorter.
Mike

Great info from all of you, and thanks for the quick reply. I have some ammo ordered from Reed's Ammo and Research (think i have the name right) in 200 gr. 0.318, hopefully will be here by the weekend. We shall squeeze off a few rounds and see what happens and I'll call the gunsmith to see if he kept the casting as i did not get it from the local guy at the Firearms Collection place who arranged for the work to be done.

[osekerschan]

Hi,
I also have a 8x58R Sauer drilling by Emil von Nordheim. With the help of a friend have made cases from 9.3x72R brass. The rims needed to be thinned. Loaded with 22 grains of SR4759,large pistol primers, 190 lead gaschecked bullets; 1950 fps, with 170 Speer velocity of 1900 fps. Both bullets sized to .318. Also have two original rounds marked 8x58 1/2 R Norma cases with .318 bullets.
hp

[John]

How did you guys thin the rims ? (I'm curious, as I need to do it for my 9.3 x 72 R cases...)

Thanks !
John

[sharps4590]

John, if you have a lathe it's a simple operation and can be done from either side, depending on how much needs to come off. I have only had to do it once and I took it off the front of the rim, that part of the rim closest to the head. I think Mike takes some off the back end of the case at times with no problems. I'm certain that's fine as long as not so much has to come off as to allow the seated primer to extend beyond the head. Without a lathe I suppose one is down to a file and slow going. I've thinned case necks with a file....once. Never again.

[Dan Patch]

If one wanted to thin the rim from the back side and was faced with the problem of insufficiently deep pockets as a result a primer pocket uniformer could deepen them to their original depth quickly. Something to look out for, of course, would be excessive thinning of the web of the case. Dan

[mike ford]

John,Dan
For my 310 Greener, I use 32-20 brass and it is small enough to be hard to thin it from the front, so I take it from the rear, and use the primer pocket uniformer also. Small rifle primers are the same thickness as small pistol, so switching primers wouldn't help. After doing the first one I sectioned the case snd made sure it was thick enough. It is a good idea to section a case whenever the pocket has to be deepened.A large rifle primer is thicker than a large pistol, so most of the time taking it from the back works if you change primers.Most cases with thin rims are for low pressure cartridges, so pistol primers are ok.When I did take the material from the back, I chucked a 32-40 file/trim, turned into a 7/8-14 threading die(not solid rethread die, it won't close on the thread and lock the trim die in), and trued with tailstock to hold the cartridge case.I did this for 8.15x46R, but it would work also for 8x58R. For 9.3x72R where you don't want to switch primers, you can do the same trick, but with 38-55 trim die. In both cases, the trim die holds the rim far enough away that you can reach either side of the rim. You will have to either lever the case out or bump it out with a rod through the headstock.
Mike

[birdhunt]

Hello again, I shot the gun a few weeks ago and was well pleased with the pattern from both shotgun bbls so far as pattern placement in 30 in circle at 30 yards. The folks at James Wayne said the right bbl is IC and left is IM. I purchased loaded 8 x 58R S ammo as mentioned before, which would not chamber. It was made from 30-40 Krag cases. Since I could not get the casting from the gunsmith (he recycles), my son and I got more Cerrosafe and did our own. We determined the case to be about 2 mm too long, and a bit large at the base. We pulled the bullet, trimmed the case to 57 mm and turned the base just in front of the rim down to about 0.426, reprimed and charged and the round chambered fine. As usual the wind is always blowing at near hurricaine force when I want to sight in a rifle, but I fired a shot at about 40 yards in about a 30 MPH crosswind and my son almost fell out when I hit an almost prefect bulls-eye--luck more than anything as the wind was blowing me about like a tumbleweed--but i was happy with my "one shot group". I sent the other 19 back to Mr. Reed who was very willing to work with the casting to determine what the issue is. He is a nice guy and very willing to help.

[mike ford]

birdhunt,
In a previous posting on this thread, I mentioned loading for a 8x57R/360. This cartridge is very similiar to the 8x58R S&S and the two are often confused. Other than a small difference in length and head diameter, the main obvious difference is that the 8x57R/369 is a "necked" cartridge and the 8x58R S&S is a tapered cartridge. Are you sure you have an 8x58R?. The difference in head diameters is only about .006-010" and doesn'n usually cause a problem. However,cases formed from a larger case, such as 30-40, to a maximum diameter 8x58R case,will not likely chamber in a 8x57R/360. On the other hand, if formed from a smaller case such as 9.3x72R or 38-55), it may very well chamber and fireform to the necked shape. This is why it is important for the handloader to have the rifle in his hands.
Mike

[birdhunt]

Mike,
Great question. I am ASSUMING its a 8x58R Sauer based on the gunsmith's opinion after casting. Unfortunately, that casting is gone. We did another and sent to Mr. Reed at Reed's Ammo and Research in OK, and I am hoping if he sees something different he will let me know. One thing I didn't mention yesterday was after firing the round there was very little change in case characteristics and the length and diameter matches very close the the given specs of the 8 x 58 R Sauer round. He's had the fired round, casting and remaining 19 unfired rounds about a week so I'm probably going to call him tomorrow. We'll figure this out yet and thanks again for your input.
Larry

[trmungle]

I also have an 8x58S and the grove dia. is .3225. This would allow use of .323 bullets. I am going to use cast bullets in this drilling as I see no need for jacked bullets at the velocity of this cartridge. I bought some Bertram brass from Grafs. Expensive, but no forming hassle. The 30-40 case is about .016 too large at the base. This would take some heavy duty forming to reduce the case in that area. I was going to form from 9.3x72 until I found the Bertram stuff. The 9.3x72 base is about .007 in smaller at the base, but would work. Also would need to thin the rims on 9.3 brass. Tom