Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

[Axel E]

Pre-98 “Transitional” Actions
On October 30, 1895 Mauser patented his new improved bolt with a sleeve lock (Fig. 130), wing safety (Fig. 130), third safety lug, a bolt guide rib, gas escape holes in the bolt to divert gases out the left side of the action (Belgian patent 120477, March 12, 1896; Fig. 133), and an integral firing pin shroud with a larger flange to further divert any escaping gases. Cocking occurred mostly on opening the bolt. (Chapter Nine, pg. 81)
Mauser applied for the bolt sleeve lock patent in 1895, but it was issued in January 1897 only. The 1896 – 97 test actions, pre-transitional and transitional, did not yet have this lock. Maybe it was deemed unnecessary at first? Note also, the patent drawings don't show the safety firing pin, introduced in 1901. See:
https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNe...ge=1&xxxfull=1

[Axel E]

Lud Olson gave me the last edition of his book worked on by himself in 2000, Jon Speed published "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" in 1997. We have all learned some things since then. BTW, me too could provide some snippets of information to both.

[sbakf]

Lud Olson gave me the last edition of his book worked on by himself in 2000, Jon Speed published "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" in 1997. We have all learned some things since then. BTW, me too could provide some snippets of information to both.

I'm sure you could provide some snippets of information, as others might who participate in this sport. In my fields of study, books are for beginners. With the time required to research, write and edit (not an easy task), most are considered to contain mostly old news by the time they're published. Nevertheless, folks like me need to start somewhere and books can do that - give us a start.


Again, what had me second guessing myself were comments taken from Speed.

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Test continued with all remaining rifles until 1902, which resulted in the destruction of most of them. A few actions were kept as spares and some rifles survived the troop tests. (Chapter Nine, pg. 87)

Some of these very rare transition actions dating from 1895 to 1898, predecessors of the actual 98 action, were used to make up sporting rifles. These may have serial numbers indicating later assembly, or very low numbers that fall into the very beginning of the new Model 1898 sporting rifle SN range. (Chapter Nine, pg. 87)


The MAUSER Archive
(Chapter Two, pg. 26)

The serial numbers on these rifles could be the ones from the actual troop test rifles, or a number from the correct corresponding sporter serial number series started in 1898.
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I questioned, how were the transitional test rifles indexed/identified initially? There must have been some SN’s attached to each – but where on the rifle? Were they numbered sequentially (e.g., 1 thru 2000 for the 8X57mm test rifles)? How many of the 2,000 ordered where actually taken to completion and tested? If pre-numbered and pre-proofed (nitro) as a test rifle, were these numbers/proofs removed to apply a new Mauser sporter serial number (e.g., my SN 871)? Did some of the test rifles, when converted to sporters have two serial numbers? Answers are probably to be found in the books I have – I just need to keep looking.

You posted Wednesday:
As your action is unmarked by Mauser on the outside, but has the Mauser commercial serial number in the proper places under receiver ring and on back of magazine, it was sold by Mauser as an action only, without barrel or stock, to Sauer & Sohn, who used it to build their rifle on the action, using a typical Suhl barrel and a stock of their own make.

I was thinking the same about a week ago – i.e., sold to Sauer as an unbarreled action. An action made, but never used as part of a pre-98 transitional test rifle. I was thinking it was held in inventory - in reserve, as back-up. A parts source if needed – perhaps even a bolt if one (a replacement) was needed during the field testing. In Speed’s Archive book (pg., 336) reference is made of requests from Spandau Arsenal to Mauser. I can’t read German, but what’s described in English appears to represent a lot of need for replacement receiver/bolt parts. Were they having problems with bolts/nuts in 1897?

I can accept SN 871 on my rifle’s receiver as an acknowledgement of its registry to the Mauser sporting rifle group. Just wonder, however, why was it even assigned/given a Mauser sporter number if it was going to end up with Sauer? Why didn’t Mauser make a sporter of it? Was my receiver just part of a lot deemed surplus by Mauser - left over parts, some complete some not? When did Sauer buy these pre-98 test actions from Mauser? The answer to this last question could be important. Was it 1898 or 1911? Unless someone has some documents showing the transfer from Mauser to Sauer for these actions, don’t know if I’ll ever know. All I can say now is pre-1912 for the transfer and God only knows when it was made into a complete sporting rifle and then sold.

Steve

[Axel E]

Your "new" questions have been already answered several times in this thread:
sauerfan on page 1 dated your Sauer & Sohn serial number 79000 to the 1890s.
The 871 serial number dates the action to 1898-99. the numbers on the smaller parts (except the mismatched bolt, of course) match, no double numbers here. Sorry, but none of your photos shows the rear magazine wall. It should be 871 too. So the original action was numbered by Mauser in their standard commercial series.
So Sauer & Sohn started immediately to build the rifle after getting the action from Mauser.
The "post-1912 date" stipulated by friends Jim Cate and Mike Ford came from their not knowing the crown /N stamp was used on guns proofed for a service load of GBlP from 1893 on, combined with the big crown.I already explained this proof. The crown/N mark came into general use, f.i. on pistols, only from 1911 on. So they thought it indicated a "post-1911" date. Forget an " about 1912" date for your rifle!
Mauser from 1898 on sold actions to other gunmakers, as there was a demand. Most others did not like the then still developing Mauser styling. Mauser later copied some features of the Suhl made rifles. Go back to the "Archive", page 416: in 1898 Mauser sold only 84 complete rifles, but 422 actions, 1899 98 complete but 771 actions, 1900 385 complete, 836 actions. So Mauser's own sporting rifle production had a slow start, while the actions alone were in high demand by other gunmakers.

[Axel E]

A big problem for me now, it seems, is Sauer's records (per Cate's book) are no where near as neat as those for Mauser (per Speed's book). A plot of SN's vs Production Date (or) vs Sale Date for Sauer sporting rifles would probably look more like the pattern of a shotgun blast.

S&S assigned their serial numbers at the start of making a gun. They had a huge inventory to be able to fill orders without delay. Some of their guns were proofed and sold immediately after completion. Others remained in stock for some years, to be completed and proofed only after an order came in.

[sbakf]

Axel,

sauerfan on page 1 dated your Sauer & Sohn serial number 79000 to the 1890s.

What you say is true, but “the 1890s” wasn’t specific enough for me – it covered a 10 year time-frame. I wanted to pin it down to a year or two – like I can and do with my other rifles. Sauerfan mentioned in his second post: Jim Cate’s book “J.P. Sauer & Sohn: A Historical Study of the Hunting and Sporting Guns Made By the Original Company 1751-1945”- a book that I ordered 4 days later from the GGCA. I bought it for its title (i.e., thinking it might be a good read) and the added hope I could establish a more precise understanding and production date for my rifle. Unfortunately, Cate’s production data (table) in the back of his book wasn’t very helpful. I got another 10 year time-frame, but this one was - say about 1900 to 1910.

NOTE TO JIM CATE: I’ve backed off some on the books by Speed and Olson and have started in on yours. There’s a lot of history in your pages – the kind I enjoy. Not a formal lecture, but a relaxed sharing of stories and photos – nice. Question: Will you, or perhaps someone else, ever translate and publish (e.g., book, website PDF, etc.) those record books (#9-#31) you and Martin Krause discovered in 2007? Did anyone ever go back and look for books #1 through #8? I wonder if information on my rifle might be recorded in one of the volumes found.

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sbakf 01-23-2015, 10:54 AM #1

Part of my first posting:
As already mentioned, not being a firearms expert (or historian), I've been searching the internet with a few posting to some gun forum sites. I've learn a few things, but more often, I feel I'm generating more questions than I've answered. For example, the S/N (79000) and other visible markings on the receiver ring indicate a production date of 1912. As to who, where and when this rifle was assembled (and first sold), I still have questions. Such is the nature of research they say – I’m enjoying this endeavor/quest, however.

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Parts of what sauerfan wrote:

sauerfan 01-23-2015, 11:08 AM #2

Is the SN really 79000??? If so, the production date would be much earlier, i. e. in the 1890s.

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sauerfan 01-24-2015, 11:05 AM #15

1/ The SN is one of the lowest Sauer Mausers I’m aware of. Actually, the lowest SN currently known is 78202 mentioned in Jim Cate’s book “J.P. Sauer & Sohn: A Historical Study of the Hunting and Sporting Guns Made By the Original Company 1751-1945”. Yours is the second lowest.

2/Actually, it seems (!) to have a Pre-Transitional action – not sure for 100%, but it seems so.

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Jim Cate’s (Partial) Production Data on J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifles

67842 Mauser 98 (UNKNOWN)
68096 1900/02 (MADE ABOUT)
71354 1908/10 (MADE ABOUT)
71621 1908/09 (MADE ABOUT)
72089 1908 (MADE ABOUT)
77274 1910 (MADE)
77721 Mauser 98 (UNKNOWN)
77983 1911 (MADE)
78202 Mauser 98 (9X57mm) (UNKNOWN)

79000 MY RIFLE (MADE - UNKNOWN)

80944 1911-12 (MADE ABOUT)
81044 Mauser 98 (8X57mm) (UNKNOWN)
81168 1902-06 (MADE ABOUT)
81232 1902-06 (MADE ABOUT)
83472 1901/03 (MADE ABOUT)
83511 1901-03 (MADE ABOUT)
83652 1903 (MADE ABOUT)
86009 1904/08 OR 1912(?) (MADE ABOUT)
86109 1900/01 (MADE ABOUT)
86334 1903 (MADE ABOUT)
86698 Mauser 98 (8X57J) (UNKNOWN)
87353 1903 (MADE ABOUT)
87888 1902/03 (MADE ABOUT)
88851 1903-04 (PROBABLY MADE)
89097 Mauser 98 (? CAL.) (MADE 1899)
89365 1904 (MADE)
89686 Mauser 98 (8X57J) (UNKNOWN)
89690 Mauser 98 (8X57J) (UNKNOWN)
90567 1904 (PROBABLY MADE)
91053 1903/04 (MADE ABOUT)

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The 871 serial number dates the action to 1898-99. the numbers on the smaller parts (except the mismatched bolt, of course) match, no double numbers here. Sorry, but none of your photos shows the rear magazine wall. It should be 871 too. So the original action was numbered by Mauser in their standard commercial series.

Either yes, perhaps, no or I’m confused again. I was under the impression that my rifle’s action (before Sauer and missing bolt) was part of a production run of 2,000 pre-98 “transitional” (8X57mm) test actions ordered up in 1895. Since this group of actions (when barreled and stocked) proved successful in their field test (i.e., the Model 88/97), I assumed my rifle’s action was probably manufactured somewhere between 1895 and 1897. I was also under the impression that once my rifle’s action was retired back to the Mauser factory (if it ever had left in the first place), it was trimmed out with a commercial style magazine, trigger(s) assembly and probably finished (e.g., reblued). It was only then that it was stamped with the new Mauser numbering system (start date 1898) for commercial sporting rifles (that is, my SN 871 was applied 1898/99).

Here’s 2 photos of the rear magazine wall. The SN 871 is clearly visible.
DSC02057.jpgDSC02055.jpg


So Sauer & Sohn started immediately to build the rifle after getting the action from Mauser.
The "post-1912 date" stipulated by friends Jim Cate and Mike Ford came from their not knowing the crown /N stamp was used on guns proofed for a service load of GBlP from 1893 on, combined with the big crown.I already explained this proof. The crown/N mark came into general use, f.i. on pistols, only from 1911 on. So they thought it indicated a "post-1911" date. Forget an " about 1912" date for your rifle!

My apologies on this one – I had totally forgot your essay on the crown N controversy. I have no complaint with the discussion(s). The only reason I initially used the 1912 date (first post) was I had been told this nitro proof (visible on my receiver ring) indicated a pre-1912 testing date – I only wanted to be conservative on dating my rifle.


Mauser from 1898 on sold actions to other gunmakers, as there was a demand. Most others did not like the then still developing Mauser styling. Mauser later copied some features of the Suhl made rifles. Go back to the "Archive", page 416: in 1898 Mauser sold only 84 complete rifles, but 422 actions, 1899 98 complete but 771 actions, 1900 385 complete, 836 actions. So Mauser's own sporting rifle production had a slow start, while the actions alone were in high demand by other gunmakers.

Do what you’ve got to do – to make ends meet. Does seem a bit counterintuitive – at first glance. When you’ve just introduced a new product line, why would you be selling most of your principle/prime stock items (parts inventory) off to your competitors – keeping them in the game? Course, now days, washers, refrigerators, stoves and such are handled the same way. One manufacturer – multiple retailers.

Anyway – thanks again for your help. Keep pounding my head with facts and eventually I’ll find a storage slot for easy retrieval. My kids get frustrated with me as well. I keep asking the same questions about how to use my new iPhone.

Steve

[Axel E]

In the 1896 to 1900 period Mauser was not very interested in the civilian market. They were still busy making Swedish M96 military rifles, Ball shows a receiver ring dated 1899, and the Turkish 1893 military rifles. Further, they were involved in developing the M98 large ring Action, fighting for adoption and orders by the German army. Civilian sporter production was just a sideline, a spinoff of military production and an opportunity to sell actions and parts not needed any more for the military production soon to come, though they were still the most modern bolt actions available anywhere. Selling actions to other gunmakers had additional benefits for Mauser: Any rifle with the "new Mauser action" served to popularize the advantages of this action, rumored to be "Germany's new miltary rifle", and it's advantages over the still current M88 action, also used by the Suhl gunmakers to build sporters. Further, nobody knew at that time how a Mauser sporter should look like. So having sporters on Mauser actions made by others sort of outsourced research and development work on how a proper Mauser sporter should look like. While the earliest original Mauser sporters shown in Speed's books looked rather homely, in 1912 Mauser finally adopted several Suhl developed features for their own sporter production: a more pronounced pistol grip, the "Schnabel" foreend and the lever release for the magazine floorplate being examples.
The serial number dating in Jim Cate's book is mostly guesswork, as none of the guns has a precise proofdate. Were the contributors aware of such Mauser niceties like "pre-transitional, transitional, fully developed M98 actions"? I seriously doubt that, as the Sauer & Sohn experts known to me are more interested in the S&S break open guns, shotguns, drillings and combinations. Note that all bolt action numbers you noted are simply called "M98", though some certainly were not.
I dare to cut your "about 10 years time span" to less than half: At the Mauser factory parts making for the army test rifles started in 1896. Your action left the factory at the end of 1898. The S&S seral number points to about 1899 – 1900. After 1902 M98 large ring receivers came into common use, though sometimes still combined with leftover transitional bolts. So I am going to date yor rifle 1898/99, perhaps one year later. The Suhl gunmakers did not keep large numbers of unused Mauser actions in stock. They ordered the Actions when needed. See "Archive" page 343: On June 3, 1899 S&S ordered 25 actions, July 29 another 50, next 50 two weeks later, another 2 weeks 50 more and so on. Maybe S&S was then the Mauser distibutor for the Suhl and Z-M guntrade, supplying other gunmakers with Mauser actions too?

[sbakf]

Axel,

Good post - easy read and informative as always. I have no complaints, reservations or arguments to make - either voiced or held. A reasonable compromise stated - a consensus reached on dates applicable to my rifle. A true Turn-Of-The-Century rifle - that has a good ring to it. Thanks!

Course, I still have questions to ask. Nothing major, just minor stuff - the trim work, as some would say.

Back to the marking on my barrel.

QUESTION #1
The barrel rib on my rifle has written (stamped) J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl.. I've read this indicates rifle was only for the domestic market. Those that have an added Made in Prussia or Made in Germany were export rifles. Can you confirm?

QUESTION #2
In my posting #63 and #64, I showed some photos of the metal parts of my rifle once remove from its stock. There were a lot of stamping exposed on both barrel and receiver/action assembly (e.g., serial numbers, nitro proofs, cavemen, crowns, caliber designation etc.). The meanings assigned to each were discussed in later posts. There was one fairly prominent mark (stamping), however, that lacked explanation - the number 58. It was only surpassed in size on the barrel by the Sauer SN (79000) and it was also displayed on the bottom side of the receiver ring. What was the significance of this number? This question, although not pressing in the overall scheme of things to discover, kept bugging me. In later internet searches, photos kept popping up showing the same number under a rifle barrel. One of these photos was linked to a thread posted on GUNBOARDS.COM. I referenced this thread in a later posting of mine (i.e., posting #74), but only mentioned the #58 in passing (see below):

UPDATE

Found a good series of posting on an older thread tonight. I'll read through it again tomorrow, but it seems to clarify the meaning of 172/28. Photos contained in this thread look very similar to my own - even the 58 stamp. Reloading info is also provided.


It was suggested in this thread that the number 58 represented an assembly number.

58 is apparently an assembly number, crown/S, AA and other letters are factory internal quality control stamps.


I wasn't sure of what assembly number meant, but figured either 58th action barreled on a particular day or the action was barreled by worker number 58. I really didn't dwell on it, but this explanation just didn't seem quite right to me. How could so many barreled actions have the same stamped number?


You ever experience an epiphany? For me, it usually hits in the middle of the night (e,g., like past 3 AM). I had one tonight and said to myself - Nah! It couldn't be that simple. Had to get up and check it out though. I grabbed my folding ruler a laid it along my barrel. It measured 22.75" from muzzle to receiver ring. Convert that to centimeters and you get 57.785. Does the stamped 58 on my barrel and receiver specify barrel length to the nearest centimeter?

I'm thinking - Yes!

But - I'm needing confirmation. HELP!


Steve

[Axel E]

QUESTION #1
Yes. S&S guns destined for the German speaking markets were usually marked with the German spelling "Sauer & Sohn, Suhl", while most guns built for export to English speaking countries wer marked "Sauer & Son, Suhl".
British law since 1887 required all "inferior, foreign made" goods to be clearly marked with "made in …". But soon the inscription "made in Germany" was accepted as a mark of quality in the international markets and used with pride by most Germans. Of course, goods made for the domestic German market were most often not marked such.
Some Suhl gunmakers used the more specific phrase "made in Prussia" instead. So they tried to distiguish their "superior Suhl made guns" from the from the "junk made in competing Zella-Mehlis". Though Z-M is merely about 4 miles away from Suhl, it was in a different German state until 1918. Suhl was in the Kingdom of Prussia, while Zella-Mehlis was in the Duchy Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.
QUESTION #2
Assembly numbers were provisional, used by gunmakers to keep the parts of guns made in batches sorted for final assembly, before a serial number was applied at the end. So the same assembly numbers may appear on several guns of the same type, if they were made in different batches. Gunmakers had their own systems of assembly numbers. As S&S treated barrels and receivers differently, bluing the barrel and casehardening the actions, they had to make sure that a barrel met again the receiver it was fitted to. If you read "58", it is quite a high number for any batch of same type guns. But if you read it as " type 5, gun number 8 of the batch" it is a possible assembly number, if different batches of Mauser actioned rifles were made in batches of about 10 from time to time.
On the other hand, "58" may be a factory internal code for the man who joined barrel to receiver, adjusted headspace and so on, meant to keep him resposible for any goofs, is entirely possible too.
I dismiss the idea to mark barrel length this way. Why mark the obvious? and why mark the barrel length on the receiver too?
In the end, we will never know for sure what the 58 on S&S repeating rifles really meant.

[Saddletramp]

Congrats sbakf
This next week I take ownership of my first German sporter. A J.P. Sauer Sons Suhl Pre-Treaty (8x60mm in .318 ) near original condition! She's a beautiful Looking at your pictures they probably on the bench together at the Suhl plant
She is an elegant little hunter, I think I'll name her Eleanor! LMAO
Lightly engraved receiver, floor plate and arcaded barrel root, checkered butter knife bolt handle, Octagon to round full rib barrel, rich dark brown stock with Pancake cheek piece, Schnabel forend, 1 fixed 1 folding rear sight and barrel band sling mount.
Damn! This Babe is one pure German sporter! And God knows, I love a "sportin" woman!
I think I'm going to have to kill me a bull elk this next season with a hundred year old rifle!

[Saddletramp]

You'll be able to tell if it is Ivory, it will have depth in the surface and somewhere it will have to be end grain, and will show growth rings or layer lines. Ivory it like a tree trunk! Looking at the photos close up it looks like it's bone to me. Ya, could be walrus penis! Just be happy it ain't walrus Vag!
I like that bolt shroud cross hatching!
Ya know, I feel like we put much to much importance on "original" Yes I can understand if you have a real museum quality piece you want to conserve. But I'm of the mind that if something needs fixin, or if something doesn't work for you, make it like you would have if you were the first owner. You don't think some 49er in the Klondike worried about the resale of his rifle cause he changed the sling mounts!
No one in their right mind would leave a ragged old barn find 67 427 corvette in the same condition as the way they find it! Most all of the worlds most expensive automobiles are frame up restored.
as I said in an earlier tag. I just purchased this ones (your rifle's) sister!
Is your .318 or .323 Bore dia? Mine is the earlier of the two 8x60mm .318.
Don't know if you know why? But the Treaty of Versailles signed on June 28 1919 prohibited Germans from using past military munitions. So the civilian market replaced it with the .323 dia bullet and a 3mm longer case.
If you don't know, you will wanna have the chamber and bore casted and measure the casting.

[mike ford]

Saddletramp,
It's not likely your rifle and sbakf's rifles were on the bench at the same time.Your rifle hasn't been dated yet, but it's possible his is at least some 20 years older than yours, knowing nothing but the cartridge for each.As you seem to already know, the 60mm case didn't come about until after WW1, about 1920.Of course, if the rifle was originally 8x57 and rechambered,it's possible they are closer together. Proofmarks should tell the tale, if it was rechambered it should have a crown R(repair)proof. If it was proofed after about 1923, it is likely dated. We need photos( on your other thread).
Mike

[Jim Cate]

Sbakf, Regarding your questions: NOTE TO JIM CATE: I’ve backed off some on the books by Speed and Olson and have started in on yours. There’s a lot of history in your pages – the kind I enjoy. Not a formal lecture, but a relaxed sharing of stories and photos – nice. Question: Will you, or perhaps someone else, ever translate and publish (e.g., book, website PDF, etc.) those record books (#9-#31) you and Martin Krause discovered in 2007? Did anyone ever go back and look for books #1 through #8? I wonder if information on my rifle might be recorded in one of the volumes found. We, Krause and I do not have photo copies of all the pages found in record books 9-31. They have been photographed by one of our members, but I am not at liberty to say who that person is because I do not know what his plans are for these record books/ledgers. No! No one has found ledgers 1 through 8. The Suhl Archiv didn't know what particular company's ledgers they had because there was no indication on the outside of any of them as to what company the info came from. If Martin and I had not recognized the models and serial numbers of many of these guns we would not have known either. You cannot imagine what it was like being in the basement with a single lightbulb hanging from the ceiling for light and we were in dust and filth accumulated since 1945. It is a fairly expensive opportunity to go to Suhl to spend day after day in the Archiv going through Sauer files gathering data. I don't know if I will go back again or not. I have been there numerous times especially while researching info for my 2 Sauer pistol books. I'm very happy with my efforts to date most of the guns found in "hunting and sporting" book. Although there is nothing 'set in stone' when it comes to gun companies and their production records. Axel is quite correct about Mauser actions, for example, being used immediately or sitting on the shelf until orders came in for a particular rifle for a particular customer. Some of Sauer's actions (shotguns, etc.) were on the shelf for quite some time before being made into complete guns. Sometimes years!! We, authors like myself, simply do the best we can and ask you for your help as new info is discovered. Regards, Jim

[mike ford]

We are lucky to have what we do have, for a long time we thought it was lost, until Jim and Martin paid the price to find it.
Mike

[Jim Cate]

Thanks, Mike! Just wish we could have found the production records for the Sauer Model 38 & 38H pistols also. The real "fun" was handling all of the original documents, not microfilmed documents. The Soviets didn't spend any money on microfilm machines. We did find some production data for the Vest Pocket Pistols (WTP), but other than a few serial numbers on dated invoices for pistols and some long guns nothing was there except the data we found in the basement. I keep hearing stories about how the city was bombed and the records destroyed, or the records were burned by the Russians, etc. Well, Suhl wasn't bombed or burned. Even "postwar" J. P. Sauer that recently moved from Eckerforde keeps telling inquirers that nothing remains, which is wrong. I asked them to forward any inquiries about pre-45 guns to me, but after 2 years I have received nothing...not the first one!