Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

[fuhrmann]

Steve,
some 30 years ago in Zurich, Switzerland I bought a Mauser 98 action from a Ferlach-trained gunsmith. He had cleaned and polished it and installed a "spoon handle". I assume that back then your typical Austrian gunsmith still was raised with Mannlicher-Schönauer rifles and for him this was the way a proper bolt handle had to be. If he made the new handle himself or bought it somewhere, this is as hard to determine as it is of no importance. And of course this does not mean that all spoonhandles were installed by Austrians
Reminds me of the old biochemists advice: do not waste clean thinking on dirty enzymes.

Try working that bolt with the palm of your hand! No fingers needed, no problems with gloves.
fuhrmann

[sbakf]

Reminds me of the old biochemists advice: do not waste clean thinking on dirty enzymes.

But for suffering the path they took, would such men have penned these words?

or

Thou shalt not believe something just because you can explain it.

To be learned, doesn't make one wise. Yet, chance favors the prepared mind.


"And of course this does not mean that all spoonhandles were installed by Austrians"

I agree totally - it could have been done by a man in Arkansas.



Morning fuhrmann,

Thanks for your posting, it's been near 40 years since last engaged in such language. Sorry for my delay, but it was a warm sunny day. A day to be outside with nature and full-of-energy grandkids.

To my rifle - I'm just prepping my head, as a freshman would do. Reading and looking at photos - preparing myself for possible clues. Clues to be recognized, so that answers might be found. As to my bolt handle, it's been relegated to the back burner for now. The road I took in search of it has steered me onto other paths.

I bought this rifle just before Christmas from a man in North Carolina who had had it for years. He bought it from a man in Florida, a collector (now in his 90's), who had had it for who knows how long. I'm trying to pin down specific dates from each (i.e., years of ownership). My rifle has been altered, but by whom? Not the man in North Carolina, perhaps the man in Florida - I'm waiting on answers. Two emails and several calls with no response. I'll try again this week.

The receiver ring of my rifle has some light factory engraving (photo 1). In sharp contrast to this, the bolt sleeve has been heavily (deeper) engraved with a crossing hatch pattern (photo 2). Some work, I think, rather well done. Lines are neat, nearly parallel and continue quite well onto the forward raised lip of the sleeve - a job, I think, not easy to do. I contrast this work with a W. Gehmann sporter (photo 3) and a Springer sporting rifle I saw recently (photo 4).



DSC01566.jpgDSC01549.jpgIMG_4695.jpg (C).jpgMY GUNS - SPORT MAUSER BY SPRINGER (CE PHOTO 10.jpg).jpg


Now, I'm no connoisseur of metal engraving on German/Austrian sporting rifles, but that work on the Gehmann looks pretty sloppy. Course, isn't he known more for gun sights. Anyway, I was wondering if such engraving work has a tell? That is, a style that can be recognized as coming from a particular engraver, shop, region, country or school. Other points of wonder for me is why just the bolt sleeve? Did the owner run out of time, money or was the job only to cover the 99?

Steve


P.S.

Try working that bolt with the palm of your hand! No fingers needed, no problems with gloves.

Perhaps with fingers when cleaning, all other times it's with my palm. This bolt handle is just too close, small and sharp for my hand - very uncomfortable.


DSC02145.jpg

[fuhrmann]

Steve,

hatch pattern on those scope bases are quite usual. For some reasons many gunsmiths and / or customers thought they belonged there, maybe to prevent glare or who knows why.
Mounting scopes was (and still is) not a "factory job" but done by your local gunsmith who ordered the rifle, the scope and the scope mount parts and then put it all together. The Suhl claw mounts you see here are quite obsolete now because too expensive.
When everything was in place, the hatch pattern was engraved in the same shop - not worth the trouble to ship the thing to some engraving specialist. I can only speculate that with your Gehmann example that job was given to the apprentice.

Now to the bolt sleeve: I have never seen such a hatch pattern on a Mauser bolt sleeve, so I believe it is "custom", "aftermarket" or whatever you want to call it. Somebody with a good eye, a steady hand and plenty of time did this, but who and why is beyond understanding. On picture 1 the bolt body appears to have polishing marks so I would say a lot of tinkering was done with it. My guess is all the tinkering happened on your side of the Atlantic ocean.
Axel explained that the bolt is not the original one. Also in my eyes there is no way to know where the replacement came from.

Regards, fuhrmann

[mike ford]

In my experience, if an engraver was "close at hand", the gunsmith would send him the work on SEM bases. The cost was quite minimal, I waited while Erik Boessler did one on a rifle for me, it only took 10 minutes( he both "shaded" and cross hatched it).If there had been an apprentice with the skill, they would have done this type work( at one time he was teaching his daughter).
Mike

[Axel E]

This cross-hatched "engraving" is seen quite often on Zella-Mehlis made sporters built in the 1920s on ex-military WW1 Actions. Usually the whole receiver is engraved this way too, maybe to conceal the military origin and markings. One of the reasons why I condemned the bolt as a mismatched replacement at first glance.

[sbakf]

In my experience, if an engraver was "close at hand", the gunsmith would send him the work on SEM bases. The cost was quite minimal, I waited while Erik Boessler did one on a rifle for me, it only took 10 minutes( he both "shaded" and cross hatched it).


Mike,

Wow! I didn't realize they could do it so quickly. Course those guys with chainsaws and a big log can do some amazing things in a short period of time - I've wacthed them on youtube (#). Also explains why my wife's dad got such nice work done on his rifles while in Germany (multiple tours). Handsome (but not gaudy) engraving and/or inlays for a carton of puffs or bottle of Seagram's. At that speed, guessing they they could do something like this in a day - two at most (attached photo). Might take 3 bottles of Seagram's though.

(#) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyDaxzeFaRk

MY GUNS - ENGRAVING PHOTO lawson-338-close-over.jpg

[sbakf]

Axel,

This cross-hatched "engraving" is seen quite often on Zella-Mehlis made sporters built in the 1920s on ex-military WW1 Actions. Usually the whole receiver is engraved this way too, maybe to conceal the military origin and markings.

Again - Wow!, but with a really added. Think I'll do a Google search - I'd like to see a photo. Can't imagine anyone, specially a German, doing such a dastardly deed. Course they say it's the cover-up that's worst - that's usually an American thing. So, you're thinking that's why my bolt sleeve was butchered with a hatching pattern (Americanized). Thank goodness the whoever didn't do the whole receiver. Only image I can conjure for such is in the -- real ugly category.




One of the reasons why I condemned the bolt as a mismatched replacement at first glance.

... condemned the bolt ...

A little strong, don't you think. Such negative waves (#) - it's just a bolt on a rifle. Sure, I would have liked for it to be the Mauser original, but I'll bet it will function just fine. No one is at fault here - neither rifle, me nor previous owner. Besides - if my rifle was totally original from Sauer, whose life would be better for it. It's not a museum piece - just an old rifle with a little history - just a field gun to be used by me and family to follow.


(#) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csv1wXOr5tY

[excess650]

You're taking his response too literally. My interpretation is that he "identified or suspected" the bolt was a replacement. It doesn't mean that its unsafe, just not original to the action.

Lots of military actions got reworked after the wars, so is the reason you will see some of the "cover up". What is not to like about an artisan embellishing an action?

[mike ford]

Steve,
The 10 min.job was only for the bases,this is a very limited area and he had done it so many times he could do it in his sleep almost. The factory engravers were expected to complete the "standard" hunting scene on a drilling or over/under in a days work. A young engraver friend of mine was "let go" because he kept taking longer.
Axel,
Another reason for engraving/crosshatching/stippling the reciever ring was if a scope had been mounted by cutting a dovetail in the reciever ring, and the cut pierced the ring,the rifle would not pass newer "view"proof rules.In mounting a different scope, the front base would be placed on a "sattle" mounted ahead of the reciever on the barrel,and the cut filled and finished off to match the ring. The engraving/crosshatching/stippling would cover up the joint. Repair proof was not normally performed for a scope mounting job.
Mike

[sbakf]

The 10 min.job was only for the bases,this is a very limited area and he had done it so many times he could do it in his sleep almost. The factory engravers were expected to complete the "standard" hunting scene on a drilling or over/under in a days work. A young engraver friend of mine was "let go" because he kept taking longer.

Mike,

I knew what you meant - just the scope bases. But still, 10 min is a lot quicker than I would have imagined. Even more surprising is what you say about time required for the "standard" hunting scene. What asking price were they getting for those back then - a day's work? I'd like to use one of those "inflation conversion programs" to estimate the expected cost for such work in today's dollars. I wonder if they're working for about the same rate. Did you have any of this type work done on your rifles while over in Germany?

I never was really drawn to the topside engravings, but some floor plate scenes have caught my eye more than once. Especially the ones with a dog center stage. I had a very special one in my life - best friends we were. She still knots my throat when I think of her - 30 years since passing. I often thought of placing her again - under my hand.

Steve

[sbakf]

excess650

You're taking his response too literally. My interpretation is that he "identified or suspected" the bolt was a replacement. It doesn't mean that its unsafe, just not original to the action.

No - I learned quite some time ago not to take all of Axel's comments literally. From the beginning of this thread, I've always welcomed and appreciate his willingness to share his expertise on the subject at hand - still do. Some of his earlier postings were, however, interjected with comments that had me second-guessing his intent. I never reacted to them and let things flow as they were. In time, I came to realize it's just Axel being Axel - no ill intent considered. My response last nights was a touch of levity - not in words, but tone. Why not let Axel second-guess me for a change - at least for a little bit. I figured after watching the two video clips, he would see the overall theme of my remarks. Think positive, consider all options/possibilities and we can all share in the prize if there's one to be had.



What is not to like about an artisan embellishing an action?

Nothing - I've always had an appreciation for the true artist. Whether they work metal, canvas, wood or stone - play an instrument or dance in the ballet. I've seen fine examples of all, both here and abroad. When it comes to guns, I'm overwhelmed by some that I've seen. The delicate engravings are what most impress me - how is it possible? From a practical standpoint, however, I have no desire to own one. Do they shoot better, once engraved - no. Could I hunt with one - doubtful. I'd be too afraid it might get damaged. No safe-queens for me - thanks.

Steve

[sharps4590]

If I didn't hunt with highly, finely engraved firearms there is several that would never see the woods. One or the other of them sees the woods about every day whether I'm cutting fire wood or just taking my daily walk....something accompanies me. Just because they're engraved doesn't mean they aren't intended to be used. No safe queens for me either.

[mike ford]

Steve,
The standard hunting scenes were included in the price of the drilling or over/under,usually called something like "Deluxe" or "Luxus"model, and not priced separately.I suppose you could take the difference in price between that model and the "Standard/Field" model,but the difference would also include "better" wood/fit/finish in addition to engraving. I did have some engraving done, but not too much.In rebulding a drilling that had been buried after the war, I had to file much of the original engraving off to remove "Dings". I had this replaced/repaired, but it was only simple engraving around the edges(rand stich gravuer?).In another case, in replacing my double rifle that was stolen from the gunsmith's shop,he used the action from a shotgun that had the standard rather than hunting scene engraving. We had the standard engraving "filled in" with additional floral engraving to equal the amount, but not the style on the stolen gun. The only "full on" custom engraving job I had done was by my friend that was "let go" for being too slow, on a Ruger #1 we put together in my gunsmith friend's shop , where he fit "dummy side plates" to look like a sidelock rifle.This was done in small "English" style. This job took weeks and weeks and was done in his home while babysitting the children, because his wife was working.I was able to visit and watch the progress week to week.After I thought he was finished, he kept on adding little "dots" and "squiggles". I couldn't say what the normal price for this would have been,because due to our friendship, he only had me give him enough money to buy his wife a coat for Christmas.
Mike

[sbakf]

Mike,

Thanks for the technical info and story of the rebuild. Tech stuff is something to store and someday (hopefully) recover when needed. Personal experiences, on the other hand, hang up front with the other good memories section and are always easily retrieved. Did you stay in touch with your friend? I had more than a few German friends both in Wiesbaden and Munich, but these were primarily hang-out together and party friends. Being it was the 60's, friendships weren't that close. They were more or less like the - just passing through kind.

The standard hunting scenes were included in the price of the drilling or over/under,usually called something like "Deluxe" or "Luxus"model, and not priced separately.I suppose you could take the difference in price between that model and the "Standard/Field" model,but the difference would also include "better" wood/fit/finish in addition to engraving.

From somewhere I got/had the impression that factory guns were more or less a blank slate and it was the private gunsmith (i.e., dealer) who was responsible for any custom engravings to be done. So are you saying companies like Mauser and Sauer did have their own master(?) engravers available to perform (per order) custom work for a client? Was this custom work "one of a kind" type engravings or was it more of a "pick out of the catalog" type engravings?

Couple more questions?

You say, he both "shaded" and cross hatched it.. What do you mean by shaded? I was looking through my pictures today and found one that shows that there is a striped pattern below the hatch pattern on my bolt sleeve (photo 1). This patterned underlayment appears rather unique in that the lines are again somewhat parallel to each other - i.e., I think not made by a common wire brush. Is this shading and how is/was it done?

In seeing this picture, my curiosity over the gothic letter on my bolt's cocking piece also came back (photo 2). Add to this, in looking at a link within a link supplied by Axel, I saw a photo of a Mauser bolt with a gothic style stamp underneath the downturned handle (photos 3 & 4). These gothic style stamping must mean something in my view - they're too ornate and deep. Do you have any ideas? Does anyone? IMHO(s) would be welcomed. Does Storz's book or any other book show such stampings? I'm not at all sure what letter (or letters) is represented on my rifle's cocking piece. At first, I thought an "E", but I couldn't find it duplicated in any German Gothic Letters chart I looked at. Then I started thinking, perhaps there's two letters there instead of one. With that thought, I came up with CE. Again, do you have any ideas?

1) MY GUNS - STAMPING TO COCKING PIECE - SAUER SN 79000 DSC02161.jpg 2) MY GUNS - STAMPING TO COCKING PIECE (C-RS) - SAUER SN 79000 DSC02161.jpg



3) MY GUNS - STAMPING UNDER MAUSER BOLT HANDLE (FP)- AXELs LINK-LINK.jpg 4) MY GUNS - STAMPING UNDER MAUSER BOLT HANDLE (CP)- AXELs LINK-LINK.jpg


THANKS!

Steve

[Dan Patch]

Steve: the Fraktur letters shown in images 1 and 2 don't show anything that likely can at this late date be identified. Their location isn't one of those reserved for German military inspection or proof markings, so they were likely in-shop sign-offs by workmen or shop supervisors. The markings shown in 3 and 4 are another matter altogether.

The underside of the bolt handle root was where German military inspection and proof markings were to be placed on the bolt body of any bolt action rifle acquired on behalf of the German armed forces. The standard markings in this location were spelled out in German ordnance handbooks, charts, and what have you. They were, per regs, a large crown-over-Fraktur letter closest to the bolt body, then a Prussian eagle (or alternatively a Bavarian lion), then topmost a small crown-over-Fraktur letter. The bolt body shown began life as a Gew.98 bolt body, with a straight handle which was subsequently bent down into a "turned down" configuration. In the course of this latter work the top of the eagle and the smaller crown-over-Fraktur letter were obscured. The exact significance of these three marks is also spelled out in the regs, but I can't recite them from memory. Dan