Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

[Axel E]

Mike, I have looked up your Mauser # 100 / Rigby in "Waidmannsheil" # 41. Your rifle bears the Mauser address and 1898 date on the receiver ring, so it was originally sold by Mauser as their own product to Rigby. Perhaps it's one of those rifles Rigby ordered a "Rigby" style stock and sight bases for in October 1898. Those actions meant for sale to other gunmakers with the Mauser serial number on the underside are usually not "Mauser" marked on the ring. This applies to all the three actions shown in this thread, two completed by Sauer & Sohn, one by an unknown, gunmaker. As Jon Speed wrote, some only of these Mauser made, outside unmarked, number below, actions bear the Mauser address on the receiver rail, but never the address or banner on the ring.
Rigby was the sole British distributor for Mauser actions from 1898 on only. Maybe rigby got "Their" first Mausers through other dealers before they made their own contract with Mauser. Noone in his right mind, neither Rigby nor Sauer, would have ordered spare parts without having the guns in need of the parts. BTW, the transitional Rigby , Mauser # 102, shown on page 214 of Jon's OOSR is marked the same like your's, as is the 1897 dated pre-transitonal shown here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...e=8#Post218762
This rifle still looks quite "Germanic" with the "flat ovals" on the stock, similar to # 280 shown on OOSR page 87.
I will ask Marc Newton, Rigbys's, about it when I meet him at the IWA.
I would exclude the Spandau idea. The government arsenal Spandau was responsible for testing and distributing the rifles to the military. They were not allowed to sell guns or actions to private parties, especially not the newest, up to date designs, underselling Mauser this way. Remember, all the Mauser patents leading to the development of the 98 were still valid, as the USA painfully learned when Springfield armory designed the 03 with many Mauser features. The test actions and rifles went back to Mauser, who then reworked and renumbered the actions. The imperial government had no right to make or sell Mauser rifles until the Gewehr 98 was adopted and the contracts on this matter were signed.
Jim, I don't know either the confifuration, date or serial number of the Sauer/Mauser rifle you mentioned, so I cannot comment.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Since my rifle was sold to E.Leslie on September 10th,1898; it could not be one for which Rigby ordered a Rigby style stock and sight bases for in October 1898.In Speed's "Archive", I found a couple passages relating to the discussion; on page 35,"Most of the early(1895-1900)Mauser rifles shipped to Rigby were in finished form.Rigby only put their name and address on top of the barrel.On some of these early rifles,no British proofmarks were applied." On page 40;"Mauser was already utilising the services of the Rigby firm as early as 1895 to handle various arms transfers as well as modifications of specific arms." This indicates that Rigby performed various services for Mauser, before becoming their distributor, and having their own "Running Account Register". It is known that Paul Mauser personally visited John Rigby on several occasions in London (as well as Westly Richards mgt.group)(page 32), and he could have personally sold them rifles before they became the exclusive distributor.Since there is another possible source, I agree now that they likely did not come from Spandau.On the other hand, if Spandau bought them from Mauser(its possible Mauser got no money,in hopes of a contract), in theory they could resale them. As the Government, it wouldn't be the first time they disregarded Mauser patents( re M88 Commission rifle).Mauser was pretty agressive defending his patents, but not so much against his government. On the other hand,I agree, Spandau would have been pretty protective of military secrets.
Mike

[Dan Patch]

Steve: the markings shown on the bolt components are for internal purposes in identifying a workman, shop, subcontractor, etc. and almost invariably can't be identified at this late date. They are distinct from markings applied to indicate government acceptance, which were highly codified both as to their location and significance and can occasionally help suggest time and place of manufacture. The partial serial number on the firing pin should be read as "99" as military parts numbering was applied to be seen from the back looking toward the muzzle. The most important markings on the bolt would have been on the upper shank of the handle, and that is no longer present. Dan

[sbakf]

Dan,

Thanks for addressing my question - when you have 6's & 9's and no experience, which way do you go. But, for 6's and 9's it might also make a difference what side of the axis you're looking from (i.e., left side vs right side). That aside, so the firing pins were tagged with the last few digits of the S/N - was there a ratio for these? With 99 on the firing pin, can one guesstimate how many digits in the S/N of either the Mauser action it came from or bolt(?) it went to?

UPDATE THIS AM: A PHOTO I FOUND SUGGESTS MY 99 TAG NUMBER COULD GO WITH A MAUSER S/N AS HIGH AS 9999 (i.e., 1905 or earlier).


Steve: the markings shown on the bolt components are for internal purposes in identifying a workman, shop, subcontractor, etc. and almost invariably can't be identified at this late date. They are distinct from markings applied to indicate government acceptance, which were highly codified both as to their location and significance and can occasionally help suggest time and place of manufacture. The most important markings on the bolt would have been on the upper shank of the handle, and that is no longer present.

Maybe there's another way to approach the underlined part of your post:

The Sauer S/N on my rifle is 79000, with the smaller Sauer parts tagged with "000" (i.e., front sight base, back sight base and the inside lever of floor plate). The other numbers on my rifle are Mauser action numbers - S/N 871 and the smaller Mauser parts tagged with "71" (i.e., trigger assembly parts, bottom plate and bolt release lever). That poor Sauer sporting action I pictured on page 6 of this thread (Sauer S/N 78970) had similar markings, at least with the Mauser numbers I could see (barely). That is, the Mauser S/N was 816 (under receiver ring) and the numbered bolt parts (both shroud/sleeve and the safety lever) were tagged with the number 16.

Note: On this particular old Sauer (S/N 78970), the shroud numbers run parallel to the principle axis of the rifle - not perpendicular, as I've seen in other Mauser action photos (see attachments below).

Was orientation of the shroud/sleeve numbers determined by number of digits to be stamped or did it vary between the years (i.e., early vs later) or, for that matter, between workers? What was the tag number on the firing pin of that other Sauer rifle cited above (Sauer S/N 78970, Mauser S/N 816). Would it have been 16 like on the its bolt shroud/sleeve and safety lever? If my firing pin is tagged with the number 99, what number would be on the shroud/sleeve of the bolt body that covers it? Would it also be tagged with the number 99?

Again, thanks for the assist,

Steve



MY GUNS - OLD SAUER SN 78970 pix156731713.jpg

MY GUNS - SPORT MAUSER BY SPRINGER (Bolt Numbers).jpg

[Dan Patch]

Steve: When I posted my previous comment I was describing the marking practices found on German military 98 Mauser rifles, rather than German sporting arms. The bolt in your rifle is, as Axel pointed out, a replacement bolt from a military Mauser, either a Gew.98 or a Kar.98a. The number "99" on the firing pin could be a complete serial number, or (more likely) the last two digits of a number somewhere between 199 and 9999. Most German military small arms will have a suffix letter following the numerals, but not all. That firing pin may be original to the bolt, and if so, those numbers originally on the exterior have been removed or engraved over. The best source of information on numbering practices in the period 1898-1918 is Dieter Storz's Rifle and Carbine 98.

I am by no means an expert on German sporting rifle numbering and marking practices, but I believe those rifles (and also shotguns) are far less consistent in marking practices seen, than military arms. Only in the area of markings of proof acceptance and gaging do they adhere to anything like uniform standards. Dan

[sbakf]

Dan,

Again, thanks for your response. I especially appreciate your thinking (as I do) on a likely range for Mauser serial numbers linked to a firing pin tagged with the number 99. That is S/N 199-9999.

The bolt in your rifle is, as Axel pointed out, a replacement bolt from a military Mauser, either a Gew.98 or a Kar.98a.

This comment left me a bit confused, however – again. I didn’t remember it being described as a military bolt (either a Gew.98 or a Kar.98a.), but …. What’s the difference between a military-style bolt and a commercial-style bolt. Weren’t the pre-98 "transition" actions” actually (so-called) military actions? So, I went back through the posts to refresh my memory. I probably missed some, but this is what I found.

(Axel, Posting #77):
It now has a much later, mismatched bolt.

(Axel, Posting #24):
The close-up photos of your bolt cofirm my opinion: The original, cock on closing bolt of your pre-transitional 1896 action has been replaced with a much later cock on opening 98 one of originally WW1 military origin. It most likely came from a 1920s sporter because the non-matching engraving on the shroud.

(My Response to Axel’s Posting #24, Posting #34):
Help me out. I've been searching the internet and I still can't fully grasp an understanding of either "pre-transitional" or "transitional," as they apply to the modification of the Mauser action - vis-à-vis bolt. To me, it seems a conflict in terms. If one is transiting from a '96 bolt (i.e., cock-on-close, COC) to a '98 bolt (i.e., modified to cock-on-open, COO), was the transition taken without an intermediate step? Would there not have been '98 style bolts in '96 receivers during the transition period of 1897 (i.e., testing phase = transition period).

(Axel, Posting #19):
Here is a pic of another very early S & S Mauser with a small ring action I took several years ago at a gunsmith's shop. Barrel rib inscribed J.P.Sauer & Sohn, Suhl. It is based on a small ring, pre-transitional 1896 test action, see Jon Speed's "Mauser Archive" page 25. It already has some of the Mauser 98 action Features like the third safety lug, the gas flange on bolt shroud and internal ring in receiver, but is still a cock on closing action.

(Axel, Posting #8):
Mauser did not make any standard length small ring actions except the 1890s transitional ones, but then a later bolt was substituted for sure.


Sorry - it’s late and my head is a little fuzzy - so, I’ll comment further on this tomorrow. I will also share some evidence that might shed some light on my bolt's shroud/sleeve tag number.

Thanks Again,

Steve

[Axel E]

Yesterday I visited the big German hunting show "Jagd & Hund" in Dortmund, 120 miles away. Rigby also had a stand there, but Mr. Nelson was not there, just a friendly, German speaking salesman. Besides some of their new "Big Game" model they had on show an early, cock on opening transitional action .275 = 7x57 rifle, Mauser serial number 726, Rigby 1315, receiver ring with the full inscription "Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf a.N. 1898". Mauser serial number on side of receiver ring. They gave me a reprint of their 1899 flyer on the then new "The Mauser-Rigby Magazine Sporting Rifles". So they widely advertized then the Mauser name too, with the Mauser serial number visible.
Other gunmakers like Sauer & Sohn did not want the Mauser advertisement on their rifles and ordered "their" actions without outside inscriptions, maybe to have open space for eventual engraving, if ordered engraved by a customer. All three transitional and pre-transitional actions are of this "anonymous" type. On these anonymous actions only Mauser placed their commercial serial number on the bottom of the receiver ring, invisible on the assembled rifle. The double-numbered S&S rifle Jim Cate mentioned was perhaps one with the Mauser inscription still present, sent to S&S as one instantly availble at the moment? IMHO now the use of the hidden serial numbers was not a matter of time, but how the actions were ordered from Mauser, with or without the Mauser inscriptions.

[Axel E]

Steve, I will try to answer your many questions t this way. It will be a longish article, but you have a lot to learn.
.

The bolt in your rifle is, as Axel pointed out, a replacement bolt from a military Mauser, either a Gew.98 or a Kar.98a.

"I didn’t remember it being described as a military bolt (either a Gew.98 or a Kar.98a.), but …. What’s the difference between a military-style bolt and a commercial-style bolt."

Simply, because a fully developed 98 bolt with bolt sleeve lock and wide gas escape holes can not be original to a small ring, standard length receiver made by Mauser.

"Weren’t the pre-98 "transition" actions” actually (so-called) military actions? "
No, as "military action" is usually understood as an action officially introduced into general military use and subsequently mass produced to equip an army, subsequently used for building a sporter. For instance all the famous Griffin & Howe Springfiels sporters are built on military actions.. The pre- and transitional actions were merely experimental, as such not adopted for general issue.

"It now has a much later, mismatched bolt."
See above! A Mauser small ring receiver and a fully developed 98 bolt simply can not be original together.

"The original, cock on closing bolt of your pre-transitional 1896 action has been replaced with a much later cock on opening 98 one of originally WW1 military origin. It most likely came from a 1920s sporter because the non-matching engraving on the shroud."
I now concede, because of the serial number, the original bolt may have been a cock on opening, transitional one already. There were some Standard length transitional Actions too, though rigby used the intermediate length ones only. As you are confused by "a military one from a sporter" : Pre-WW1 Mauser sold about half of their commercial actions as "actions only" to other gunmakers (see"Archive", page 416), as with the patents still valid only Mauser could sell 98 actions to the public. So everyone wanting to build a 98 action repeating rifle had to buy an action from Mauser. Post-WW1 the world was full of surplus Gewehr 98 and Kar98AZ rifles that had to be "Demilitarized". So most Suhl and Zella-Mehlis made sporters were built on such ex-military actions, as the surplus military parts were cheap as dirt. As your bolt sleeve has that crude engraving, it is certainly such an ex military bolt, sporterized during the interwar years, new bolt handle welded on and body "jewelled" quite recently.


"Help me out. I've been searching the internet and I still can't fully grasp an understanding of either "pre-transitional" or "transitional," as they apply to the modification of the Mauser action - vis-à-vis bolt. To me, it seems a conflict in terms. If one is transiting from a '96 bolt (i.e., cock-on-close, COC) to a '98 bolt (i.e., modified to cock-on-open, COO), was the transition taken without an intermediate step?"
The terms "transitional" and "pre-transitional" come from the slow progress in research on the evolution of Mauser actions. Initially American authors knew only the Swedish 94 and the 98 action as used by the respective armies. (I explained the differences on one of the first pages of this thread). Then the rare cock on opening actions without bolt sleeve lock and safety lugs on firing pin were discovered. These were described first as "early 98 actions" until 1897 dated examples were found. Then someone called them "Transitional" as a step in between the 94 and 98 actions. Only recently the cock on closing actions were discovered and published. As they represent another evolutionary step in between the M94 and the transitional, they are called "pre-transitional" or "early transitional"

"Would there not have been '98 style bolts in '96 receivers during the transition period of 1897 (i.e., testing phase = transition period)"
No, as the fully developed 98 bolt came after 1898 only, in combination with the large ring receivers. I understand, you try to fight for a faint possibility your bolt may have been original to your Sauer & Sohn rifle after all. NO CHANCE!

[sbakf]

Hello Axel,

Please don’t lose your patience with me – my learning curve has always been broad. Like you, I have over 40 years of research experience – albeit in the biomedical sciences. Our disciplines are different, but our methodologies should be similar (i.e., Socratic). You have 40+ years of experience with the subject at hand. I have, with receipt of two books and some internet searches, less than month of such. As I’ve already stated (#10 of this thread) -

Thanks for your comments - much appreciated. As suggested, I know nothing about this rifle or others like it. I'm trying to assemble as much info as I can. Please continue to share your thoughts. Fact, fiction or rumor - I don't care. I'm seeking multiple opinions and, therefore, hopefully I might reach the truth (or get close to it).

This comment still rings true in my head, although my knowledge base is now slightly off bottom.

[sbakf]

While engaged in this endeavor, my mind is full of wanderings - one query to the next (wonderings) - things to ponder. My thoughts are a cluttered mess, as is my office. I must organize, I said to myself early in the week. My office stayed straight for almost 2 days, but my thoughts remain jumbled.

I started the week thinking to first concentrate on the bolt handle of my rifle. It’s been suggested by some, either directly or in a roundabout way, that it’s an aftermarket piece. Obtained from the likes of Brownell and attached by Bubba’s gun shop for some dumb American GI. Dumb, in the sense, that he took a German classic and put his brand(s) on it. I might feel the same way if I saw a classic MG/AH pimped out with non-OEM accessories. I’ll offer the old guy some sympathy and understanding, however. It was his rifle, he paid for it and probably didn’t know what he had before putting his brand on it. I didn’t know, the guy I bought it from didn’t know and, more than likely, the owner before him (now in his 90’s) didn’t know - of its history and/or its place in it.

Back to the bolt handle. I’ve searched and searched, but nothing was found to match what I have (1st photo). Closest I came were two bolt handles pictured within some Google search results. The first is on a Brno Mauser (2nd photo) and the second is on a Springer production (3rd photo).


DSC01821.jpgMY GUNS - BOLT HANDLE Mod22H_BRNO-7x57s--2.jpgMY GUNS - SPORT MAUSER BY SPRINGER (Some Traits Like Mine) PHOTO 7 - Copy.jpg


For now, I’m putting this part of my searching on hold. I’m not seeing any pressing justification to continue. It is what it is – not factory (OE). For me personally, I don’t care for it. It’s too shiny, sharp, pointed and lies too close to the stock. I like my bolt handles balled at the end, swept down and out, then back slightly (e.g., see photo below). I can’t easily cycle this rifle's bolt and especially not with gloved hand.


MY GUNS - BOLT HANDLE - MY PREFERENCE.jpg

[sbakf]

How close must we get before we can see?

It appears that my bolt sleeve/shroud is numbers matched to the firing pin. I had looked at it, taken pictures of it, but didn't see what has been there all along.


One of the first pictures taken (1-9-2015):



DSC01549.jpg


See anything? Nothing jumped out at me other than the hatch pattern - the subject of my attention.



A later picture of the bolt sleeve, photo on 1-30-2015

MY GUNS - BOLT SLEEVE PHOTO ON 1-30-2015 DSC01840.jpg




Then one evening, I was zooming in-and-out on multiple computer stored pictures of my bolt sleeve. I was trying to compare engraving patterns between it and those presented on other German sporting rifles. I wasn't looking to make a great discovery - just curious of the details in each.

The following is representative of what was seen under enhanced condition (e.g., lighting & zoom level).


MY GUNS - OLD SAUER SN 79000 BOLT SLEEVE NUMBER - EP1 IMG_0342.jpg

[Axel E]

[QUOTE=sbakf;4997]Back to the bolt handle. I’ve searched and searched, but nothing was found to match what I have (1st photo). Closest I came were two bolt handles pictured within some Google search results. The first is on a Brno Mauser (2nd photo) and the second is on a Springer production (3rd photo). [QUOTE]

Description from Brownells catalog #55 (2002-2003):
Meier butterknife bolt handle ... #1207 is similar to original BRNO's but a bit fatter and more rounded...

If you want to have another bolt handle welded on, the Dave Talley Classic Bolt knob offered by Brownells is very close to the original Mauser Commercial tear drop shape.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...prod13114.aspx
But please, don't attach it swept back like a Winchester 70 one! The Mauser originals were at right angle to the body.

[sbakf]

Description from Brownells catalog #55 (2002-2003):
Meier butterknife bolt handle ... #1207 is similar to original BRNO's but a bit fatter and more rounded...,

Axel.

Yes, I looked at it when you first suggested that's what I had.

The bolt was modified again quite recently: New bolt handle, once available from Brownell's as "Meier butterknife bolthandle #1207 (Brno style)", (Posting #24)

I took a look searching your description, but photos found of it just didn't seem to match what I had - so, I kept looking.


MY GUNS - BOLT HANDLE (Meier Works BRNO-Style Butterknife, Midway USA).jpg
Midway USA Version


I still don't know the source of my bolt handle. I spoke to a gun broker a few days ago about it. He deals primarily in old German and Austrian sporting rifles. He indicated that mine wasn't that unusual - he had seen the style before. He also stated that most seemed to come out of Austria - custom built by the gunsmiths there. Handles formed from metal sourced from an assortment of savaged parts. Interestingly, it his thoughts that led me toward the works of Springer and my late discovery of the number tagged to my receiver.

[Axel E]

OK, you "Doubting Thomas", here is a copy of the former Brownells offering. Of course, before welding it on, the round part needed for machining has to be cut off.

[sbakf]

Axel,

I didn't doubt you - really. You gave me a lead "Meier butterknife bolthandle #1207 (Brno style)" and I went for a look-see (via Google). Images I found just didn't seem right to my eye. Principle negative for me in this BRNO-style reproduction was the curvature. Perhaps an optical confusion on my end, but the direction seemed wrong (i.e., in and not out on the Midway USA version). I tried all word and string combinations I could think of in searching for other alternatives – to no avail. Only bolt handles (images) I found to be close in form to mine are probably not either high-volume prefab units or available to the general public.

So, I might have started down a wrong path – no big deal. Wrong turns/roads don’t always lead to dead-ends. We sometimes find things that are more interesting along the way – I did. My whole professional career was based on a wrong turn and observations unforeseen.

Steve