Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

[sbakf]

IT'S APART AND HERE'S WHAT I FOUND

Curiosity got the best of me, so shaped an old screwdriver to fit the big screws and broke them loose - didn't take much torque. Next I tackled that transverse key in the forestock - no problem there either. First I removed the metal trim around the small end (2 trim screws), then I removed the 2 trim screws on the other side of the stock (big end of key). Turned the rifle back over (i.e., big end of key down) and lightly tapped the key (small end) with a bit of wood and it was out. Once I removed the two big screws bottom side, the barreled action lifted right out - same with trigger/magazine assembly.

Of course, I took some photos for all to see. Take a look and share your thoughts (i.e., knowledge). Thanks!


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[sbakf]

More Photos 1:

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[sbakf]

More Photos 2:

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[sbakf]

More Photos 3:

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[sharps4590]

You didn't have to remove the barrel key escutcheons. The key would have slid out just fine.

[excess650]

The bottom photos hold the key to the additional info you're looking for. Pre 1912 nitro proofs and the caliber designation are present in addition to the J P Sauer trademark as well as the 3 digit action serial number.

[sbakf]

You didn't have to remove the barrel key escutcheons. The key would have slid out just fine.

In retrospect - Yes. But at the time, with no experience, I was going to play it safe. Relieve all possible tension between key and trim (escutcheons) and concentrate what might remain, to key and barrel slot. Besides, it was only 4 tiny screws.

[Axel E]

The Mauser commercial serial number 871 dates to 1898, so the receiver originally had either a cock on closing M97 bolt or a cock on opening M98 intermediate one.

[sbakf]

The bottom photos hold the key to the additional info you're looking for. Pre 1912 nitro proofs and the caliber designation are present in addition to the J P Sauer trademark as well as the 3 digit action serial number.

Yes - the fun begins. Here's the first part in a series of posts to come.

Date My Rifle Went Out The Door:

The nitro testing info on the receiver, a tech article found on the GGCA website (A Proof Mark Primer, 1891-1939, by Steve Meyer, http://www.germanguns.com/tech.html) and the nitro proof mark under the barrel (i.e., Crown/N), I surmised (suggest) a mean production date for my rifle was 1912.


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Rifles marked with only an indication of powder charge and bullet type as shown below date to 1912 or before:

2,67 g GBP
St m G

These marks show 2,67 grams of Gewehr Blättchen Pulver (military flake powder) and Stahl-mantel Geschoss (steel jacketed bullet). Other possible types are "K m G" for Kupfer-mantel Geschoss (copper jacket) and "Bl G" for Blei Geschoss (plain lead bullet).

After 1912 marks were changed to show just bullet type and bullet weight as in:

St m G
12 g

usually accompanied with a crown-over-N or the word Nitro, specifying smokeless powder.



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[sbakf]

Good Afternoon/Evening - Axel

Don't steal all my thunder - I'm taking my first steps here. Let me take a few and if I fall on my face, you can kindly pick me up.

I received the books we've spoke of and I've been reading and looking for hours. There's some ambiguities to sort out, but I'm working on that. These books might not answer all my questions, but they're definitely a good starting point - i.e., source for clues. I'm thoroughly enjoying all of it. Nevertheless, if I hit a wall, I'm sure you'll lend a helping hand. For that, you have my thanks.

Forgot! - I did hit a wall. Searching these books and countless web postings, I can't get a definitive grasp of what crowns (big & small), cavemen and/or combinations of them might mean. Has anyone?

Steve

[Axel E]

The German 1892 proof tables were still based on blackpowder loads. It soon became obvious they were not useable for the "new" smokeless cartridges like the M88 8x57I. So the imperial decree of July 23, 1893 ordered such smokeless powder rifles to be proofed with a special proof cartridge loaded with a special proof powder made by the Spandau arsenal. This powder, loaded with the same charge like the military 8x57I, 2.75 g = 42.4 gr Gewehr Blättchenpulver = (military-)rifle flake powder, and the 226 gr steel jacketed bullet, produced a pressure of 4000 atmospheres, 800 more than the service pressure. This special proof powder was called "4000 atm proof powder" and was soon used to proof other rifle chamberings intended for smokeless and jacketed bullets. To indicate this special proof the decree introduced the CROWN – crown/N proofmarks on your rifle.
172.28 is a gauge number of the sort we still use on shotguns, pure lead balls to a British pound. These queer numbers were apparently copied from a British table. They indicate the bore/land (not groove or bullet!) diameter of a barrel. The metric numbers are equally queer, as 172.28 indicates a bore between 7.62 and 7.87 mm according to the 1892 proof tables. But if you convert mm to inches they read .300" to .310". They were measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plug gages.
The "cavemen" were Sauer & Sohn trade- and quality marks, registered 1882.

[sbakf]

The Mauser commercial serial number 871 dates to 1898, so the receiver originally had either a cock on closing M97 bolt or a cock on opening M98 intermediate one.


From what I've read and tables seen, I can't present any argument(s) to the contrary. Yet, there's more for me to do before I offer that final judgment. I'm always cautious in my assessments (e.g., suggests vs indicates/proves).

Steve

[Axel E]

See this thread on another Forum too:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...gonew=1#UNREAD

[sbakf]

172.28 is a gauge number of the sort we still use on shotguns, pure lead balls to a British pound. These queer numbers were apparently copied from a British table. They indicate the bore/land (not groove or bullet!) diameter of a barrel. The metric numbers are equally queer, as 172.28 indicates a bore between 7.62 and 7.87 mm according to the 1892 proof tables. But if you convert mm to inches they read .300" to .310". They were measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plug gages.

This I've read, but I'll be doing some more this evening. I remember, as you indicate, some ambiguity in the what this code really represents. I'll have to go back and reread some sections tonight (e.g., both books & some web posting). Think I remember seeing 7X57 (Spanish), 7.65X53 (Argentine) and 8X57 calibers cited. Coding aside, I won't know for sure until I have a chamber cast and the barrel slugged.

7X57 (Spanish)??? - a hold on this thought. This might have come from my reading on small ring Mauser actions/rifles included in the transition tests. Again, I'll reread tonight (in MAUSER: Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles, by Jon Speed Walter, Schmid and Reiner Herrmann).

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UPDATE:
Found a good series of posting on an older thread tonight. I'll read through it again tomorrow, but it seems to clarify the meaning of 172/28. Photos contained in this thread look very similar to my own - even the 58 stamp. Reloading info is also provided. Re: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...some-questions



The "cavemen" were Sauer & Sohn trade- and quality marks, registered 1882.

Yes, I've read this as well. The Mauser forums, especially those that center on the old Sauer doubles, are awash with questions and speculation of what they mean. Yes - probably as trade marks and quality scaling (or assurance), but why not just one of each. Each symbol must define something, but what? Why are there some guns showing multiples of each with ratios that vary?

Does Jim Cate speak of this in his book(s)? I've only had time to look at his book briefly, so it might be in there. If so, someone give me a page number please. If not, has anyone bothered to ask Sauer directly?

Steve

[Dan Patch]

In composing and trying to post my first contribution to this forum I've lost a bunch of text & am not up to doing it all over again word for word, so will keep it brief and hit the high points. In addition to the transitional cock-on-closing Mauser action Axel outlines here there is, I believe, a variant cock-on-closing action found on the early 1897 John Rigby rifles. These Rigbys differ in that the bolt lacks the safety lug but does have the firing mechanism interlock feature seen on the 1893 Spanish, 1894 Swedish, and 1895 Chilean arms. This interlock was thought desirable because while releasing the firing pin on a cock on opening design with the bolt slightly raised won't cause a primer ignition, in a cock on closing design an ignition with the bolt not fully locked can occur, with potentially serious consequences.

I agree with Axel's statement that the German sporters using transitional cock on closing actions were likely built on actions reclaimed from German military trials rifles. As to these Rigby actions I'm uncertain; they may be recycled goods, or they might be of new manufacture. My reasons for thinking these Rigby actions differ significantly from the ones Axel has pictured is (a.) the bottom view of the early Rigby sporter action held by the firm seems to show the long sear characteristic of actions with the interlock (the interlock stud was mounted on the front of the sear and lengthened it accordingly) (b.) I have a murky pic of a Rigby bolt assembly which shows it has no safety lug but does have at least some of the machine work on the bolt body necessary for the interlock to function.

I hope this shortened version of my original failed post conveys some of what I had intended. Thanks, Dan