Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

[mike ford]

Axel,
I can't tell, because of the engraving,does the screw on your lever enter from the top or from inside?
Excess650
Does your floor plate have a hinge?Does the screw enter from the top, or from inside?Is the rear tapered like Axel's or is it "squared off", like Steve's?

[excess650]

Mike,
My floor plate is NOT hinged, but I was mistaken about the parts not being numbered. BOTH the floor plate and latch are numbered to the action.


Steve's looks correct to me. The screw is from the inside to (presumably) a stud that extends through the floor plate.

[Axel E]

Axel,
I can't tell, because of the engraving,does the screw on your lever enter from the top or from inside?

First, that Rasch rifle isn't mine, I merely did some repairs for a friend. Your question is a bit puzzling, as "from top" may mean "from top of the rifle" or otherwise. Well, both screws, the one that holds lever and excentrical locking cam together and the small one that forms the detent for the lever, go in from inside the magazine, top of the assembled rifle, so the heads are inside the magazine, invisible from the outside. Just like the one shown above by excess650. I understand your question, as the screws holding the lever on later, post 1912, original Mauser sporter's hinged floorplates go in from the outside, head visible in the lever.

[sbakf]

Hey Guys,

Wow - y'all been active today. Sorry I didn't partake, but the sun was out strong again and there were things to do - outside. At my age, physical activity is a good thing - keeps the pipes clean and the weight off.


As said by Axel (Posting #24):

The close-up photos of your bolt cofirm my opinion: The original, cock on closing bolt of your pre-transitional 1896 action has been replaced with a much later cock on opening 98 one of originally WW1 military origin. It most likely came from a 1920s sporter because the non-matching engraving on the shroud.

Help me out. I've been searching the internet and I still can't fully grasp an understanding of either "pre-transitional" or "transitional," as they apply to the modification of the Mauser action - vis-à-vis bolt. To me, it seems a conflict in terms. If one is transiting from a '96 bolt (i.e., cock-on-close, COC) to a '98 bolt (i.e., modified to cock-on-open, COO), was the transition taken without an intermediate step? Would there not have been '98 style bolts in '96 receivers during the transition period of 1897 (i.e., testing phase = transition period)?

As said by Martin (Posting #15):

What makes a pre transitional desirable: it was an intermediate variation of only 1,000 or so actions tested by the Imperial Germany Army in 1897. After the tests, the guns were returned to Mauser, Mauser disassembled the actions and sold the actions to gun factories, i. a. to Sauer. Sauer made sporting rifles based on these “surplus” actions.

If what Martin says is true (i.e., factual), the 1897-transition (i.e., step) should be characterized/defined as the testing of 1,000 '96 style Mauser receivers fitted with a prototype bolt (COO). A prototype bolt soon to be known as the improved '98 style bolt (that COO). Have I simplified this too much? If not, wouldn't all of these "transitional-actions" be described as '96 receivers fitted with '98 style bolts? It also follows, in my uneducated thinking, that all "pre-transitional" Mauser rifles would be any Mauser rifle not fitted with the new-style, cock-on-open (COO) bolt.

One other clarification would be appreciated - you say:

... your pre-transitional 1896 action has been replaced with a much later cock on opening 98 one of originally WW1 military origin. It most likely came from a 1920s sporter because the non-matching engraving on the shroud.

What were the differences between a prototype '97 bolt (COO), a '98 bolt (COO) and a '98-style bolt manufactured in the 1920's? I've tried searching the internet again, but haven't found anything that comes close to addressing this question.

As implied, I'm here seeking answers and to educate myself. Answers from those who know far more than I. With your patience and continued participation, I will eventually define a reasonable lineage for my rifle. For this, I would be truly grateful.

Best Regards,

Steve

[Axel E]

Let's try to sort out the evolution of the Mauser action:
M94 (carbine) / 96 (rifle) Swedish military action:
cocks on closing, small ring action, without internal reinforcing collar inside receiver, no third safety lug, no gas flange on bolt sleeve, no bolt sleeve lock, no safety firing pin, no gas escape holes in bolt. Common. (None of the later, pre-transitional to 98 bolts, can be inserted in a Swede Receiver, as there is no seat for the safety lug milled out)

Pre – transitional 1896 test action:
cocks on closing, small ring action, with internal reinforcing collar, with third safety lug, with gas flange on bolt sleeve, no bolt sleeve lock, no safety firing pin, no or narrow gas escape holes. Extremely rare!

Transitional 98 action (1898 -1900, observed in 3 lengths: K=short, intermediate and standard):
cocks on opening, small ring action with reinforcing collar, with third safety lug, with gas flange, no bolt sleeve lock, no safety firing pin, narrow gas escape holes. Very rare

Fully developed M98 action, came in 4 lengths: K (small ring, rare), Intermediate (large ring, fairly common, used on
Turk and Peruvian military as well as on commercial 7x57 = .275 Rigby rifles), Standard (lr only by Mauser, small ring by arsenals in WW1 for Kar98a only, ), Magnum (rare),Most common, made in huge numbers from 1900 to 1945 by Mauser and many other factories, post-WW2 by FN, Zastava and others:
cocks on opening, most often large ring actions with reinforcing collar, with third safety lug, with gas flange, with bolt sleeve lock, with safety firing pin, with wide gas escape holes. THE Mauser 98 action.

There are minor other details too, but this pretty much sums it up imho.
Your receiver comes from a 1890s pre-transitional action, but your bolt is a fully developed post- 1900 98 one.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks, you understood my poorly worded question correctly.Are you sure a fully developed WW1 98 bolt would work in a Pre-Trasitional 1896 test action? The shroud lock, safety firing pin,etc wouldn't hurt;I wonder about the length of the bolt and the cocking cam( ie 96 cock on closing- 98 on opening). Many years ago, I put together a rifle(traded and gone,so I can't check now)with a Sauer oct/round barrel in 9x57 and the original bolt. A gunsmith friend had them left from building a 7mm Mag for a customer(he used an already opened up bolt).The barrel had the small thread, so I used a 1909 Peruvian action with the reciever ring shortened .200" to fit both the Sauer barrel(small dia. standard length thread) and bolt(intermediate length). I didn't get the stock, so I don't know if the original rifle was small or large ring. Off topic, I added my own self made hinge and lever release-entirely different from the ones above.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, it's several years agobut we then tried a Mauser 98 bolt in the action. It worked, but I don't remember if it was a standard or intermediate length one. The owner wanted an interchangable modern bolt. The cocking cams don't matter, as they are part of the bolt. The cocking cam reinforce of the 98 bolt is longer than the pre-transitional bolt, but it is behind the bolt handle and goes into the bolt sleeve. The position and size of locking lugs, safety lug, bolt handle and primary extraction cam on receiver are identical.

[sbakf]

Axel & Mike - Good Day!

Axel - thanks for your response. Your outline (overview) will be another good starting point for me - more subject headings to search, with hours of text to decipher. I'm wary though - will my continued walk down this path (endeavor) bring clarity? So much opinion offered as fact and exceptions difficult to find. Perhaps I should save myself from the frustration(s) of it all and buy the requisite books. Does the GGCA offer these references for sale - dated internet postings suggest such for its members?

Mike - thanks for your invite and offer to help in the disassembly of my rifle. Are you still open for this? Would be a fun day for me. How far off are you?

[Axel E]

Steve, an internet search will be rather fruitless. Both the pre-transitional and transitional actions are so rare that nearly nobody knows them. I fact, neither Lud Olson nor Jon Speed had ever seen a cock on closing pre-transitional action until I showed them one, borrowed each time from a fellow forester. Lud visited me in 1992, and I just retrieved Jon's date 2001 in his "Mauser Archive" book, page 25. You may find some mentions of transitional actions on nitroexpress.com forum, but be warned: "kuduae" is no other than your's truly. Other "authorities" on Mausers like de Haas, Ball, Walter don't even mention these actions. Some old German gun catalogs give sparse hints only to their existence: Oscar Will, Venus-Waffenwerke in Zella, 1902/3, offered two typical "Suhl" Mausers, calling them Mod.97 at Mark 96.- and Mod.99 at Mark 100.-, "Mod. 97 cocks on closing, Mod.99 cocks on opening!" Burgsmueller, Kreiensen, 1910: "Newest Mauser cliploading repeating hunting rifles, Modell 98/99 respective 1902. The locks of these new repeaters cocks on opening, not to be confused with older rifles Modell 97, which cock on closing." That's all I have found so far.

[mike ford]

Steve,
I'm about 22 miles north of Auburn/Opelika on US 431 il LaFayette. It's easy to find. Deer season ends Sat. and I will be around then. I have a transitional action, but it wouldn't help because it's a 98 type with a different bolt installed.
Axel,
Thanks.

[sbakf]

Thanks Axel!

Thinking you've finally kicked my butt down another path - away from the potential entrapments of an internet search. I do, however, enjoy the verbal banter I sometimes witness - the back-and-forth/wordplay between forum members. Just friendly jousting, but it can get near personal at times.

UPDATE:

I received the 1925 J.P. SAUER & SOHN/SUHL catalog today. Its content wasn't near what I expected and hoped for - i.e., pages dedicated to their Mauser-actioned sporting rifle and available options for it. Oh well, a lesson learned/earned - more than once. I've attached page copies of what might be relevant. I can't read it, but ... - a translation might provide something.

MY GUNS - 1925 J.P. SAUER & SOHN SUHL CATALOG (SCAN compressed).jpgMY GUNS - 1925 J.P. SAUER & SOHN SUHL CATALOG (SCAN 6 compressed).jpgMY GUNS - 1925 J.P. SAUER & SOHN SUHL CATALOG (SCAN 4 compressed).jpgMY GUNS - 1925 J.P. SAUER & SOHN SUHL CATALOG (SCAN 3 compressed).jpgMY GUNS - 1925 J.P. SAUER & SOHN SUHL CATALOG (SCAN 2 compressed).jpg

[excess650]

That page 5 looks particularly interesting. Even more interesting would be a pre-1910 catalog or at least their descriptions.

[sbakf]

Mike,

I'm about 22 miles north of Auburn/Opelika on US 431 il LaFayette. It's easy to find.

When might it be convenient for you? Weekend or a weekday (M-F). During the week I'm pretty flexible, as I'm now retired. Weekends aren't bad unless my grandkids are coming for a visit. Can we email through this site?


Deer season ends Sat. and I will be around then.

You still hunt? I haven't in years - started getting too easy and I didn't need the meat. My kids grew up on venison - it was a necessity with 5 of them. Now I just enjoy seeing the critters on the morning and evening walks with my wife. I'm trying to build a herd on my property (bought in 2010) with planted and throw-out food. Seems to be slowly working - plenty of does hanging close with their young ones and I've pictured at least 6 different bucks on the property within the last week. Four spikes, a 4-point and my latest arrival - BB0P (a young 6-point).

GAMCAM - BBOP IN THE BOWL 1-20-2015.jpg

[mike ford]

Steve,
PM me your email address and we can switch over to email for the "stuff"others wouldn't be interested in. I, too, am retired, so most any time in Feb.would be convenient,excepting days of doctors appointments,etc.We can work that out on email.I claim to still hunt, but it's hard to climb now and I fall a lot trying to walk in the woods .I mostly drive close to a couple ground blinds we have or to a tower with a staircase, instead of ladder.The main thing is being in the hunting camp with my friends. We are really "gun nuts" that hunt a little bit,and try to "blood"our newest "toy". I haven't killed one in 3 years, so I'm way behind in blooding the rifles.We have been in the Alabama Deer Management Program, since it started and believe it has helped us.If you come in the morning, we can talk about your rifle and later I will show you around. You can't really "save up" your deer.Some will need to be taken out to keep the others healthy.Sounds like good memories with the grand kids.Understand though, when they grow over 6 feet tall, they won't sit on your lap any more.
Back to your rifle: Until we look at the underside, you don't have enough information to be sure of anything.
I'm looking forward to your PM.It looks like that buck is looking for a girlfriend,with his swollen neck.Our rut is at the end of Jan. also.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, as you doubted that a fully developed 98 bolt would fit a pre-transitional receiver, I borrowed the rifle mentioned before from another retired forester again to take some photos. I will post them all. The complete rifle is relatively unintresting, as it was restocked and rebarreled, likely several times during the past century, now 7x57. It's still the working hunting rifle and probably been so for several generations. The action and bolt are the incredibly low Mauser commercial serial number 17 under receiver ring,on rear wall of the magazine and on the other parts. (the 14401 Serial number on the outside is by another gunmaker who completed the rifle in the 1890s) It is a standard length action. The set trigger is of the Mauser commercial type, integral with the bottom metal, without a separate aftermarket housing.
Here are two pics with the original, cock on closing bolt, cocked:




And here it is with a WW2 vintage Kar 98K bolt. As you see, it fits as well.