Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

[sbakf]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the additional info - you have my attention.

I still haven't separated steel from wood - I'm just a bit nervous about doing so. I don't have proper screwdriver bits ("gunsmithing tools") on hand, but will get some in the next few days. Should I apply some penetrating oil around the screw heads a day or so before? How hard are these screws set (i.e., how much torque required to break them loose)?

Actually, it seems (!) to have a Pre-Transitional action

How can one tell? Can I take more pictures and/or measurements for you - these I can do?

You mentioned two books, as have many others in my readings this past week. Really wish I had copies sitting on one of my shelves. Looking on Amazon, they would set me back only a little over $500 for the two. I would prefer a preview before buying - that's not small change ($).

Well - it's a sunny day and I have some pasture work to do. I'll stay in touch - hope you'll do the same.

Best Regards,

Steve

[excess650]

Penetrating oil would only be of benefit if applying to the rear screw where it threads through the rear, top tang. Applying oil to the other would only allow oil to soak into the wood. The barrel wedge can be drifted with a softer than steel drift, preferably NOT aluminum.

[mike ford]

I am often wrong, but I believe that the 1897 pre transitional actions cocked on closing,and this one was reported as cocking on opening. The "horn" used on the Mauser forearm tips, mentioned above, was buffalo horn. Buffalo horn doesn't look anything like the tip on this stock, which I think was made of some type antler material with the perling filed off. You don't need to buy any special screwdrivers to take the rifle apart.Either buy or use a common screwdriver you have on hand (if you have a pasture, you will have tools) and grind or file it to precisely fit the screw slots. The width, thickness,and parallel sides are important(a common screwdriver is wedge shaped).It is not likely necessary to use penetrating oil around the screws, infact it may be harmful if not necessary.Once you remove the barreled action from the stock,be sure to make photos of the marks under the barrel,under the action, and on the rear of the magazine box( if any). It should be noted that small ring actions of the 98 type, from Kar 98s, were often used after WW1 to make sporting rifles. More often than not, they had the military markings removed. Also,I suspect that more than one rifle has been made up from a "take off" barrel and stock, left over from building a custom rifle.In these cases, mismatched parts occur. This is why it is important to see the markings under the barrel and action.
Mike

[Axel E]

Here is a pic of another very early S & S Mauser with a small ring action I took several years ago at a gunsmith's shop. Barrel rib inscribed J.P.Sauer & Sohn, Suhl. It is based on a small ring, pre-transitional 1896 test action, see Jon Speed's "Mauser Archive" page 25. It already has some of the Mauser 98 action Features like the third safety lug, the gas flange on bolt shroud and internal ring in receiver, but is still a cock on closing action. The barrel has been shortened and a new front sight dovetailed lengthwise into the rib. This was done by the gunsmith just before I photographed it. A standard length 98 bolt interchanged and worked in this early receiver. Remember, I already suspected your bolt to be a later replacement.

[sbakf]

excess650,

Thanks - I can appreciate what you're saying about the wood. I was just going to put a little around the screw heads (bottom metal) and some around the back screw end behind the bolt (tang). Thinking the oil would wick-down the screw bodies (shafts) and not wet the wood too much. Stupid me, knowing nothing about mausers, thought that patterned screw-end (tang) was a very worn screw head.

For the barrel wedge, I intend to use a brass drift. How tight is it in there - could one drive it out with a small hardwood dowel? Should I loosen the bottom screws first?

[sbakf]

Mike & Axel

Yes, mine cocks on opening.

Buffalo horn - thanks for the clarification on that. The article I cited didn't say what kind - just horn. Did you find this info in one of those books I don't have? Still, it's clear that Mauser did offer sporting rifles with a forend tip other than the more common Schnabel design. Your and excess650's guess of antler is as good as any - although I think Axel's theory is more interesting. It could punctuate (highlight) the 'tell' of a failed walrus hunt - "... it was the only damn thing recovered, so I tagged the rifle with it."

Yep - I've got pastures. Unfortunately, only BFT's for my tractors and such - out here in Mayberry country. Near 50 years of collecting tools and all the necessaries for this project are at my home in town (80 miles out R/T).

As some of you (perhaps), I'm dying to see the underside of this barreled action. Will the numbers and proof marks there, as suggested by Martin (aka sauerfan), indicate (prove) a rare find? When I do separate steel from wood, I'll take plenty of photos and share them here. You'll (then) be the judge on what is found.

In case it might help, I've taken some more photos of the bolt (removed). On inspection, there was a couple markings I didn't see before. There is a "6 or 9" with the letter "N" under the bolt handle and another marking stamped under the cocking piece (I can't identify it).

IMAGE 1466 = BOLT HANDLE DOWN - UNCOCKED
IMAGE 1467 = BOLT HANDLE UP - COCKED
IMAGE 1468 = BOLT HANDLE DOWN - COCKED

RULER WAS TO SHOW CHANGE IN PROTRUSION LENGTH OF COCKING PIECE RELATIVE TO BACK OF BOLT SLEEVE.
DISTANCE BETWEEN RULER MARKING 10 AND 11 = 0.5 INCHES
CRUDE MEASUREMENT OF BOLT DIAMETER = 0.7 INCHES

DSC01691.jpgDSC01694.jpgDSC01699.jpgDSC01763.jpgDSC01777.jpg

[sbakf]

other bolt photos 1

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1471[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1472[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1473[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1474[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1475[/ATTACH]

[sbakf]

MARKING UNDER COCKING PIECE - ROTATED:[/U][/B]

MY GUNS - BOLT COCKING PIECE - MARKING UNDERNEATH (ROTATED) DSC01777.jpg




Other bolt photos 2

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1483[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1484[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1485[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1486[/ATTACH]

[Axel E]

The close-up photos of your bolt cofirm my opinion: The original, cock on closing bolt of your pre-transitional 1896 action has been replaced with a much later cock on opening 98 one of originally WW1 military origin. It most likely came from a 1920s sporter because the non-matching engraving on the shroud. The bolt was modified again quite recently: New bolt handle, once available from Brownell's as "Meier butterknife bolthandle #1207 (Brno style)", low 45 degree safety, American style jewelling. Here is a photo of the pre-transitional 96 cock on closing bolt:

As you shy away from the considerable expenses for the books by Lud Olson and Jon Speed, you have to rely on the opinions of those people on this forumwho know not only the books, but the authors too. A conversation some years ago, translated from German, at a shooting range of course: "Hi Axel, at the last gunshow I bought a big, expensive American book about Mauser rifles. I found your name inside. Is that really you?" – "Yes, that's me. … But, which book did you buy?"

[ellenbr]

Is that today's sermon Axel?? Stalwart forward/preach on......


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[excess650]

sbakf,
The barrel wedge shouldn't be terribly tight. It will be snug, but may be tighter than snug, depending upon how tight it was fit, wood shrinkage, possible corrosion, etc. A wooden drift is actually a very good idea. These wedges or barrel keys are leftover from the muzzle loading era. Barrels were secured to the forearms with wedges or pins, actually, thats quite the opposite in regards to MLers.

When you remove the action screws (front and rear of trigger guard bottom) the barreled action should lift clear of the stock (assuming that you've removed the barrel wedge from the forend). The double set trigger assembly will remain in the stock. There may or may not be markings on the action below the wood line. Expect to see markings on the flat to the rear of the recoil lug (forward of the magazine opening). Likewise, the bottom flat of the barrel should have more proofs, possibly a date code, an encoded caliber designation, maker marks, etc...those are the photos that will tell more of the story.

[mike ford]

Steve,
Taking your rifle apart is really pretty simple and considering what else has been done to it, you are not going to lose any collector value.Since you also live in Alabama; if you can come to Chambers County, I will be glad to help you and show you the Olson book and the Speed Archive book. If the barrel wedge hadn't been installed backward, it would almost come out by pushing with your thumbnail. Axel mentioned that the bolt handle looks like a Brownell replacement ; I think the floorplate release lever also looks very much like a Brownell product that usually would have been added in combination with a hinge on the floor plate.
Mike

[excess650]

Mike,
His floor plate release looks like mine. Differences are that his is numbered to the action (mine is not), and the engraving on his is poorly executed. The release looks the same as does the wear.

[excess650]

Buffalo horn:

note the trigger guard, grip cap, and butt plate




Horn has grain and color variation. Some color variation is seen in the bottom of the trigger guard picture, and the grain to a lesser degree. Horn is much like heavily compressed hairs. Buffalo horn is normally black or dark brown. Sheep horn can be much lighter, almost amber, and cow horn will vary from white to greenish to brown and black.

The forend tip pictured is an overlay rather than a solid piece:

[Axel E]

I think the floorplate release lever also looks very much like a Brownell product that usually would have been added in combination with a hinge on thr floor plate.
Mike

Though Brownell sold copies of these magazine floorplate release levers, they were a common pre-WW1 German custom modification of Mauser detachable floorplates. These were made here before Mauser came out with hinged floorplates. Here is such a lever on the floorplate of a very early rifle by G.L.Rasch, Brunswik,on a Mauser M93 (Spanish) action: