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Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

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  • Recently acquired J.P. Sauer & Sohn (Suhl) Sporting Rifle (c. 1912)

    Hi to everyone – my first posting.

    I've recently acquired an old (small ring) Mauser-actioned sporting rifle – my first. I didn't set out looking for one, just came across it as a "for sale" internet posting. My initial web search was for anything related to firearms manufactured by J.P. Sauer & Sohn. Primarily because I have two of their Model 38H pistols - my father brought one of these back from WWII. Anyway, saw the rifle and, being from the same company, thought it might make a nice pairing to pass down to one of my sons.

    This rifle was described as being a pre-WWII, 8mm sporting rifle made by J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl. From what I can tell by looking at other web search photos, the style of it seems to agree with that era. If it's truly an 8mm Mauser, I can't tell - there's no marking on the visible part of the barrel to indicate such. I've read a caliber stamp and other proof marks should be on the underside of the barrel, but I'll need to separate steel from wood. On this particular rifle, I'm unsure on how to do such. What concerns me is that styled locking pin on the forestock. How does one remove it without causing damage? I would ask the same for the screws – I don’t want to bugger them up.

    The rifle came with modern (cheap) scope mounts - the rear poorly fitted. Really wish it had been fitted with the classic "Suhler Einhakmontage" or SEM style mounts (with period correct scope), but would have paid a whole lot more for it. Based on current hole placement (2 forward, 1 rear) and measurements center-to-center, I'm pretty sure it was drilled and tapped for a solid scope base (i.e.,, Redfield #47157). I’m tempted, however, to have them sealed and the action restored to original design and reblued (rust blue) – by an experienced gunsmith, of course.

    I'm unsure about the forend cap - it's not the usual Schnabel stock tip I’ve seen on such rifles (e.g., in web photos). I have no insight as to when it might have been added. It does, however, appear to be (near) as old as the stock - probably bone/horn (it's showing its age). Could it be ivory? - it has a slight yellowed tint and ivory was sometimes used for such – I’m told. I’ve also been told such alterations to the forestock were popular with hunters from southern Germany. With the metal work on this rifle, I’m seeing mostly (all) German craftsmanship, but I’m no expert or historian on such things – feel free to share your thoughts.

    The bolt cocks on opening and the double triggers seem to work as they should. I set the rear trigger and learned that one shouldn’t breath hard on the front one - nice. I also moved the lever on the floor plate to what I assumed was the (to) open position - perpendicular to the rifle. Nothing seemed to release. On a second attempt, moved lever to a full 90 degrees out and pulled slightly back toward trigger guard. I got release this time - the thing isn't hinged - all falls into your hand. Not very practical in my view, but better than a fixed plate - I guess.

    Other than the scope mount holes, I see only one other flaw – a small crack in the stock to the left-rear of the tang(?). I’ve read this is common in such rifles and represents inadequate clearance between metal and wood. Opinions on how to repair are plentiful on the internet – and the described protocols vary greatly. I’m totally inexperience in such, but realize the repair should be made before any further firing of this rifle. I want the crack repaired and the cause of it rectified so that it should never happen again. Again, I would seek out an experienced gunsmith for this repair – any suggestions?

    As already mentioned, not being a firearms expert (or historian), I've been searching the internet with a few posting to some gun forum sites. I've learn a few things, but more often, I feel I'm generating more questions than I've answered. For example, the S/N (79000) and other visible markings on the receiver ring indicate a production date of 1912. As to who, where and when this rifle was assembled (and first sold), I still have questions. Such is the nature of research they say – I’m enjoying this endeavor/quest, however. Perhaps I might follow in the footsteps of Michael Petrov? He took an interesting journey over a rifle and I enjoyed reading his writing of it.

    http://www.finegunmaking.com/page28/page28.html

    All things considered, I’m happy with my purchase – so far. I like the look of this rifle – simple, but elegant - it has some history. I'm hoping some might assist in telling the story of it.

    Thanks for your time.

    Steve Buchina
    Columbiana, AL
    DSC01488.JPGDSC01489.jpgDSC01490.jpgDSC01491.jpgDSC01492.jpg

  • #2
    Hello Steve,

    welcome!

    Is the SN really 79000??? If so, the production date would be much earlier, i. e. in the 1890s.

    Regarding calibre and other details: please post detail photos of the markings on the underside of the barrel - if you like to take off the stock.

    Best regards

    Martin

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    • #3
      Martin,

      I want to submit more photos (a bunch), but can't figure out how to do such. It seems I'm limited to only 5 per thread. Tell me how to add more and I'll send you a picture of the receiver ring. Hope you can help.

      Steve

      Comment


      • #4
        MORE PHOTOS:

        Think I figured it out - not easy though.

        I think the S/N is rather unique - don't often see one like this.


        DSC01493.jpgDSC01538.jpgDSC01494.JPGDSC01496.JPGDSC01492.jpg
        Last edited by sbakf; 01-23-2015, 05:58 PM.

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        • #5
          more photos 2:

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]1421[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1422[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1423[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1429[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1430[/ATTACH]

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          • #6
            more photos 3:

            DSC01511.JPGDSC01510.JPGDSC01504.JPGDSC01503.jpgDSC01502.jpg

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            • #7
              more photos 4:

              On the base of the back and front sights, it is stamped 000 - guessing it's representing last 3 digits of S/N. The fixed leaf to back sight is also stamped "80" and the folding leaf sight is stamped "175" - assume these represent distances (i.e., 80 & 175 meters).

              DSC01515.JPGDSC01516.JPGDSC01514.jpgDSC01512.JPGDSC01511.JPG

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              • #8
                The rifle Looks quite enigmatic to me: At least, it has been heavily altered in America. The foreend tip is certainly a non-German later addition. To me it looks like made of oosik = walrus penis bone. The jewelling on the bolt, the Brno style bolt handle and the low safety are also later additions, as are the qd sling swivel studs. As the engraving of the bolt shroud does not match the other engraving, the whole bolt may have been replaced.
                On the other hand, stock with it's checkering and grip cap look very much like a B type commercial Mauser stock to me. The bottom metal, triggerguard-magazine assembly, with the integral set trigger, seem to be "Mauser factory" too. The lever-detachable floorplate is a typical pre-WW1 "Suhl" modification.
                To disassemble the rifle: Take a slim screwdriver. Use the blade on the small, now right on your rifle, end of the wedge. The engraved line on the wedge is there to provide a slip-proof engagement for such a blade. Tap the wedge out. BTW, the wedge now seems to be assembled wrong: German custom has such wedges going into the stock from the right side instead from the left as on your rifle.
                After taking the rifle apart look for any numbers under the receiver ring and on the rear wall of the magazine box. These may be important to determine the origin and age of the action. Mauser did not make any standard length small ring actions except the 1890s transitional ones, but then a later bolt was substituted for sure. Look also for a serial number in the foreend barrel channel. Every bit of information helps!
                Last edited by Axel E; 01-23-2015, 07:03 PM.

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                • #9
                  more photos 5:

                  Bottom plate removed - it's also numbered.

                  DSC01528.JPGDSC01599.jpgDSC01628.jpgDSC01621.jpgDSC01626.jpg

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                  • #10
                    Martin & Axel,

                    Thanks for your comments - much appreciated. As suggested, I know nothing about this rifle or others like it. I'm trying to assemble as much info as I can. Please continue to share your thoughts. Fact, fiction or rumor - I don't care. I'm seeking multiple opinions and, therefore, hopefully I might reach the truth (or get close to it).

                    Also should add, I don't really care if I paid too much or got a bargain on this rifle. I liked the looks of it and it was less than what one would pay for a nice pre-64, Winchester Mod. 70. It feels good in my hands and I can't wait to shoot it - through open sights or scope.

                    more photos 6:

                    DSC01526.jpgDSC01535.jpgDSC01525.JPGDSC01521.jpgDSC01520.JPG

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                    • #11
                      more photos 7:


                      DSC01553.jpgDSC01556.jpgDSC01555.jpgDSC01557.jpgDSC01566.jpg

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                      • #12
                        more photos 8:

                        Photos of crack in stock plus some photos found in my search.

                        DSC01517.JPGDSC01518.JPGMY GUNS - CATALOG PHOTO - J.P. Sauer and Sohn Suhl -1925-cover.jpgMY GUNS - PHOTO 1904 SAUER SPORTING RIFLE.jpgMY GUNS - WEB PHOTO - From Sauer Catalog untitled.jpg

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                        • #13
                          The forend tip looks like the caribou antler handle on a knife that I had. Is that recoil pad marked?
                          Last edited by excess650; 01-23-2015, 10:32 PM.

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                          • #14
                            ID of what was used to make the forend tip is still open to debate. I'm going to ask my local Jeweler and Pawn Shop owner if he might assist - he knows his valuables. I just read an article on the internet that, perhaps, presents a clue (http://gunsmagazine.com/mausers-classic-sporters/). Not so much as to what it is, but that it was an option offered on some Mauser sporters.

                            Mauser’s Classic Sporters
                            … “Mauser offered five standard models of various variations in its commercial sporting line. The factory used an alpha system to designate each of the separate models coupled with a “pattern number” to designate the variation within the model line. The five basic models were as follows:
                            Type A: This model was patterned after the best of the English “express rifles. “Its most distinguishing features were a banded front sight, a set of folding “express” sights, a 24-inch round tapered barrel with a banded front sling eye, a very fancy grained walnut stock with horn forearm tip and pistol grip cap and an inside-the-trigger bow floorplate release as well as the more common lever release.”…
                            Referenced to: Mauser Bolt Rifles, by Ludwig Olson, 2002

                            This suggests that the Mauser factory used horn on some of its sporting rifle stocks. I would think, as a competitor, J.P. Sauer might have also offered the same option to its British and American customers - and perhaps to some German hunters, as well.

                            As to your question about the recoil pad. It's "Made In U.S.A." by Pachmayr Gun Works. A definite replacement piece - to be expected. If my rifle had a recoil pad originally (e.g., 1925 J.P. Sauer ... catalog shows one installed), it would have long since dry-rotted and fallen off the butt stock.

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                            • #15
                              Steve,

                              thank you for posting more photos of your Sauer Mauser.

                              The gun is much more interesting, than it may appear on first sight! Yes, the front end of the stock was altered with a bone tip of questionable taste. Yes, the bolt was “pimped” by adding a “jewelled” bolt appearance (sorry, I’m not sure about a translation of the Germany terms “Zirkopolitur”, “Sonnenschliff” or – more a disrespectful term of some German guns smiths – “Bauernblind”).

                              But:

                              1/ The SN is one of the lowest Sauer Mausers I’m aware of. Actually, the lowest SN currently known is 78202 mentioned in Jim Cate’s book “J.P. Sauer & Sohn: A Historical Study of the Hunting and Sporting Guns Made By the Original Company 1751-1945”. Yours is the second lowest.

                              2/Actually, it seems (!) to have a Pre-Transitional action – not sure for 100%, but it seems so.

                              Background: my father owned #91320 (Peo Haggards owns it today), and this one DID have a pre transitional action. For more details about the pre transitional actions see THE book about Mauser sporting rifles by Jon Speed „Mauser: Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles”.

                              What makes a pre transitional desirable: it was an intermediate variation of only 1,000 or so actions tested by the Imperial Germany Army in 1897. After the tests, the guns were returned to Mauser, Mauser disassembled the actions and sold the actions to gun factories, i. a. to Sauer. Sauer made sporting rifles based on these “surplus” actions.

                              For your information: the Mauser SN on the action of #91320 is 2511.

                              If you like to know more details about your rifle: please disassemble it and have a look on the number on the underside of the action, what’s the Mauser number. With said number you can find out more.

                              Best regards

                              Martin
                              P.S: Since a while I’m writing an article about Sauer Mausers for “Der Waffenschmied”. Hopefully, I will be ready with it in some weeks.

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