Latest drilling arrived!

[mike ford]

Vic,
Cartridges based on the 360 case have head diameters of from .427" to .433", and maybe some larger(there are a lot of them).
Mike

[sharps4590]

And this one is .460 so I expect you're closer to the truth....almost have to be, at least that it was rechambered if the stamping is to be believed and I don't see how it cannot.

[mike ford]

Let us all know how it works out.
Mike

[Mt Al]

Sharps, that is a great looking drilling in what appears to be excellent shape. Congratulations on getting it and we look forward to shooting reports.

[sharps4590]

Thank you Al. You're right on both counts. Krag cases arrived this past Friday and as forming them with the die was a one step procedure 40 are formed. Yesterday I fireformed a box of 20 and just for grins and giggles fired 3 shot groups at 35, 50 and 100 yards. As I expected all groups were high and got higher as the range increased. I fired the rest of the shots on a steel buffalo target I have from about 75 yards. I just love to hear cast bullets go "tink" when they whack steel!! I wasn't real surprised at how tight the preliminary groups were. The surprise for me was at 100 yards. I had a good target that made for a good sight picture and I think with the help of a pretty stiff breeze from my right the three shot group cloverleafed. Had to be the wind straightening out my wiggles and wobbles because I can't see that good anymore...if I ever could with open sights!!!

I tried two loads. First was the forming load with a 250 gr., gas checked bullet cast of 50/50, lead/lino over 14 grs. of Trail Boss. The second load I tried with fireformed cases was 15 grs. of Trail Boss under a Sierra 200 gr. jacketed bullet. Both loads shot well but there was no difference in elevation between the two. So, for now anyway, a new, taller front sight is in order. I doubt I'll be able to lose almost a foot of elevation with loads. If the wind lays today I'll set up the chrono and see where the velocities fall.

[sharps4590]

I have some results I would like to run by the collective knowledge of the board members. If I may be indulged there are a few observations that probably need to be revealed. First is this seems to have originally been the 360-57D Nitro for Black Powder and not the 360 Nitro Express. If Barnes is correct the "Nitro for Black Powder" bullet diameter for this cartridge is .356 -.357, which this barrel slugs. The Nitro Express cartridge of the same dimensions, again as per Barnes, should be .366 -.367. I realize Barnes is sometimes off base when it comes to German cartridges but it's all I have for a source.

Secondly, the Nitro for Black Powder bullet weight is listed as 190 grs. and the Nitro Express as 300 grs. The only bearing that has regarding the work with this drilling is that I'm using a 250 gr. cast bullet. It falls just about between the two....and happens to be very accurate. Again, if COTW is to be trusted the 190 gr. bullet for Nitro for Black rifles is given a MV of 1650 fps. while the 300 gr. bullet for the NE cartridge is listed at 1650 fps. COTW also shows a 250 gr. bullet at 1700 fps but does not differentiate between the two rifles. Here's why I list those weights and velocities.

The two loads tried consisted of 15 grs. of Trail Boss beneath the 250 gr. cast, gas checked bullet and the other was 15 grs. of Unique utilizing an open cell foam filler under the same bullet. The Trail Boss load generated an average of 1275 fps. with 903 fpe. The rest of the numbers, ES, AD and SD were nothing to write home about however, the load was "accurate enough". The Unique load had an average velocity of 1480 fps. putting forth 1216 fpe. The ES was 8 fps., AD was 2.8 and the SD was 3.5. Pretty amazing numbers to me as I usually don't see them that tight except in black powder. the Unique load was also quite accurate, beating the Trail Boss by 50%. The velocities chronographed today fell well beneath the velocities listed in COTW for this cartridge and there was no excessive pressure signs exhibited. Cases fell from the chamber when the barrels were elevated and all case measurements were fine. My experience is that if a load is that far below listed velocities and given a powder with a commensurate burning rate pressures either are or should definitely be beneath the limits of the rifle.

Two decades ago when I would have been left to my own devices both loads would have been considered within the limits of the rifle and called good. I believe the same holds today with these two loads but I would greatly appreciate the opinions of the board members. As both loads shot quite close to the same point of impact my thought is to use the Trail Boss load for fun and plinking and the Unique load for hunting. Comments & opinions?

[mike ford]

Vic,
Barnes is often "off base" as you said, but it is dependent on information from different people, and often based on only one example from one manufacturer.This is in addition to information from people that are simply mistaken. British rifles from this period would have their own variations, but you might find German rifles chambered for this or other 57mm long case with barrels marked 118,35(as yours);108,49; or 99,70. The rifle, itself, will tell you what diameter bullet it needs, and what case it needs. If it still has original sights, it might give you a good guess at what load it wants.I use a couple different sources of information, Barnes being one of them. With it's faults, Barnes is the one that shows bullet weights and velocities for most cartridges. Dixon shows more German cartridges, but shows no bullet weights or velocities; and it has it's own problems. Everyone doesn't have a Dixon, anyway; but the web has a site that has been very helpful over the years. This is WWW.MUNICION.org. It is written in Spanish, but fortunately, numbers are numbers,and it has drawings of the cartridges.At one time I figured out how to have the text translated, but no longer can.Anyway the translation from Spanish is as bad as translations from German.When you call the site up, scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on"Mapa web", the rest is self explanatory.
You didn't say which bullet you used, but from the weight, I would guess Lyman 358318. I would suggest you try Lyman 358315,(200gr) or RCBS 358-200. For powders in cartridges like this, I like Red Dot (Ed Harris' The Load, but with Kapok), 5744, or 4198 also with kapok, but your open cell foam does the same thing.I also like Unique, but you already tried it. I suggest you speed a lighter bullet up and shoot it, holding the rifle in both hands, as you would in the field. This may bring the point of impact down, but maybe not.A heavy bullet at lower velocity is in a recoiling barrel longer, therefore will likely hit higher, especially if the forearm is not held down by the hand. Also be careful to let the barrel cool.A warm barrel trying to expand against cool shotgun barrels, wants to shoot high also. Once you eliminate these variables, you still may have to install a higher front sight, but maybe not. For hunting, I think I would be more comfortable with a couple hundred more fps than your Unique load. That's just me though.
Mike

[sharps4590]

The bullet is from Accurate Molds..here,

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=36-245S-D.png

Obviously not to those exact dimensions but that's the bullet. I did try a 200 gr. jacketed Sierra RN a bit faster, not a lot, with very little change in POI and am holding the rifle, not resting the forearm or butt on a rest. I understand longer barrel time with heavier, slower bullets and muzzle rise from recoil. While I really don't want to install a taller, unoriginal front sight I'm not averse to it. The current sights are low and tiny.

I'd like a little more "oomph" out of the cartridge also, as you said, another couple hundred feet would be great. At 1600 - 1700 fps would be fine with me. I just really don't know how far I can realistically push the old piece. I don't know whether or not COTW is on the mark with their 1600 fps with a 190 gr. bullet in the Nitro for Black load but it seems reasonable for the original cartridge. Maybe I just need to get a 200 gr. 9mm mold...but doggone it I like that 250 and the 1-12 twist seems to me to be asking for it....but we don't always get what we want when monkeying with these old pieces....unfortunately

As far as different powders I haven't seen 5744 around here in a couple years. I don't think Red Dot will do it and I don't have any anyway. Are you familiar with Seyfried's recommending "40% of the original black charge" of 4198? I may give that a whirl and see where it ends up.

The cases were easy to come by but this one is more challenging than either the Peterlongo or the 9.3 X 75R. With them at least you KNEW what you had....lol!

[mike ford]

Vic,
It's your rifle, if you want a 250 gr bullet, that's what you should shoot. Anyway, it looks like a good bullet to me, with a decent meplat.I think if you look in an old Lyman bullet mold manual,in loading data section, you can find starting loads with different powders. They won't have the newer powders listed, but will have old standbys. I know you like Unique and I think they show it in 38-55, and 35 Win.. The 38-55 is close to the original cartridge and 35 Win. is close to the new chamber( but in 35, I would see starting load as max). If my memory serves, Lyman shows 17-18 gr Unique in the 38-55, the most common bullet is 245-250 gr cast. My cousin insists on using the 250gr 358318 bullet in his 9.3x72R(.352" BP barrel), in spite of me trying to get him to try my 210 gr blunt nose H&G 512c. He has good luck with the 250 and 5744, and I don't see why you can't find a load with your 250 gr bullet and Unique that you would like as well. I do remember Seyfried's recommendation, he is one of my favorite authors.My favorite load in the 9.3X72R with Red Dot and the 210 gr bullet only gives about 1560 fps and is not my hunting load, so you are right that you wouldn't likely get the vel. you want for hunting.
I went through the drill about holding the rifle in your hands and letting the barrel cool, because I always do. You would be surprised how many people rest the forearm on the rest, shoot until you can't touch the barrel and complain that those old combination guns won't shoot.I didn't mean to insult you.BTW, 4895 or 3031 might not be too far fetched.
Mike

[sharps4590]

You didn't insult me at all because I know you didn't mean it that way, it never hurts to be reminded. I hadn't looked at any 38-55 data but will. I also thought about trying a 158-160 gr. .357 bullet, which I may do. Velocity should increase considerably. I do wonder about leading with that one but one will never know until they try and I've scraped lead before....jacketed bullets work wonders...lol. I thought about IMR-3031 but have no idea where to start unless there is a 38-55 load for it. I have IMR and H 4895 but again, no idea where to start unless it too might be listed for the 38-55. I also found a 200 gr., 9mm bullet from Accurate that looks good. Sort of a lighter, shorter version of the 250 gr. I have. Ah well...this is why we fool with these things.

[mike ford]

Vic,
I agree, that's why we fool with these guns. The problem is , once we get one figured out and blooded, we have to find another one. While you are checking out jacketed bullets, try the 180 gr FP, it kills like lightening in my 357 Herrett.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Welp...yesterday afternoon I tried 3 different powders with two different bullets. One was the .357, 170 gr. you sent me and then I tried a 160 gr., .357 from a mold I have. Powders were SR-4759, IMR-3031 and RE-7. I was surprised the POI didn't move any more than 1 inch from my first loads with any of the loads. None were as accurate as the 15 grs. of Unique with the filler but I honestly suspect that was a function of ignition, the Unique having the better because of the filler. All the powders and bullets I believe would equal the Unique load with very little work, none of the groups were bad.

I poured over the 38-55 data and found the 15 gr. charge I'm using is higher than any listed, I think by 2 or 3 grains. However, with the greater capacity of this case I expect pressures may even be less.

I ran the ballistic numbers for energy just to see where it would be if 1600 fps was achieved with the 250 gr. bullet. Gain would be 205 fpe. Given the assumed original ballistics of 1600 fps with a 190 gr. bullet and with precious little ballistic difference among all the loads I believe I will try a 16 gr. charge of Unique just to see what it comes to in regard to velocity. I believe I am back to my original thought of using the Trail Boss load for general use and either the 15 or 16 gr. charge of Unique with filler for hunting, depending on how 16 grs. act. A taller front sight would cure the POI ills and I don't believe it will be very difficult to make one or have one made. I haven't heard back from NECG.

I compared the breech wall thickness on my 9.3 X 57R drilling to this one and while I did not measure it the difference is very obvious. While maybe not considerable it seems enough to me to not push this one much harder, mostly because I'm plain old ignorant of how much I can push it. This is where a peizo-electric transducer would come in handy. The Unique load appears fairly mild and there are no evident pressure signs but I just don't know. Maybe a duplex load of black would be worth trying. A 5%-7% charge of SR-4759 and a case full of black I wouldn't worry about anything with any bullet. This one sure has me scratching my head....and maybe other parts of my anatomy..

[mike ford]

Vic,
Was the 38-55 data ,you looked at, for jacketed or for cast bullets? I'm pretty sure my old Lyman manual lists more than 15gr Unique, but it is from the 60s. A lot of manuals have changed over the years.I'm packing up to go to the hunting cabin,right now, but I will pull the manual out this weekend and verify it. I try not to depend on traditional pressure signs in these old guns. I believe that before traditional signs appear, the pressures may already too high. I know you like that " nasty old blackbowder" and if you had an original chamber, you would be able to find out what to look for by trying a case full of it.With the enlarged chamber, I don't think this would be that helpful. I'm not too surprised that the POI for several loads are pretty close. When you solder a rifle barrel(even a "skinny"one) to two shotgun barrels, you wind up with a very stiff assy. I suspect if you call NECG, you will get an immediate answer( it may not be what you want).I feel pretty silly giving any advice about this, you don't need any from me, you know what to do.Just look on what I saw as a second set of eyes.Good luck( you may have it worked out, before I come back).
Mike

[sharps4590]

The jacketed data I looked at in all my old, mid-70's through I think about '85, didn't show any Unique loads. They were for cast and showed 9.5 grs. for a 250 gr. and 9.0 for a 270 gr. bullet. Both my Lyman and RCBS books listed the same loads. Both also used Mod. 94's and Lyman also showed using a Stevens 44 1/2 with the jacketed bullet loads with some running a bit over 1800 fps. I thought that was rather warm for the old Stevens action but barrel wall thickness might have something to do with it. Some of those old 44 1/2's had fairly thick barrels.....but the breech block still has to take the pressure. I would think this drilling as strong as a 44 1/2 but maybe not.

I often wonder about the "usual" pressure signs and break action firearms. I've read they can't be depended on for the reason you state and after reading why, (if I could remember), it made sense when I read it.

Mike, I always want to hear your opinions. Your experience with these old German firearms outweighs mine considerably. I am going to try a duplexed BP load, I loaded some before I left for work this morning but won't be able to run them today....it's raining like a cow peein' on a flat rock here.

Hope you have a good hunt!! good luck!

[mike ford]

Vic,
I had a pretty good hunt, but didn't kill one. The 15 year old son of one of the guys did take a nice one, a little over 200 lbs, live weight. I said above I was pretty sure the Lyman manual showed more than 15 gr Unique in the 38-55; this just shows the danger of loading from memory,and we must always check.The manual I had in mind was the "Handbook of Cast Bullets" copyrighted July 1958. My memory was in error and the Unique loads were 10.6 gr w/250 gr PB bullet and 9.9gr w/265 GC bullet, both giving about 1300fps.These speeds are the old original ones for the old Ballard rifles, rather than the "Hi Speed" for the Winch.94s. Of course, your chamber is larger than the 38-55, more like the 35Win., which shows 17.7 gr Unique w/245gr GC bullet. The 35 Win. was developed for the Win. 95, and was never a BP cartridge. In Wolf Publishing Co.'s "Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges" copyrighted 1991, Christian H.Helbig wrote an article "Loading the .38-55". He shows for the 265gr GC bullet,32.8 gr Hi-V 2 for 1834fps, 34 gr 3031 for 1863fps, 31 gr 4198 for 1870 fps. For the 255 gr jacketed bullet, he showed 33 gr RE-7 for 1825 fps. These loads were for the Marlin 93 and Win.94. not the old Ballards. Since you have 4895, you could use 3031 data as a guide, since 4895 is a little slower( the first H 4895 I bought was in cans marked "3031 data powder"). Since none of these cartridges exactly duplicate your chamber, you will still still have to use your own, more than sufficient, experience and judgement to come to a final load. Good luck.
Mike