Latest drilling arrived!

[sharps4590]

Last week I won an auction and the prize was this sweet little drilling. It arrived today and I have just been examining it so have taken no pictures of my own.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=451932336

It is, if anything, better in hand than depicted. Bores are excellent and the case hardening is better than shown and the seller is right, the checkering is still sharp. Without question this is the nicest drilling I own. However...ain't there always a "however"...

Mike and I thought it was the 9.3 X 57D. It is not 9.3, it is a 9mm, .356-.357, 8 lands and grooves, RH twist. I don't know what the stamps on the rifle barrel are. The chamber cast is of a bottleneck case with the following dimensions:

Groove dia. .356 - .357
OAL 2.345
Head .460
Rim .545
shoulder .430
neck length .320
length to shoulder 1.957 or thereabouts

I'm taking the dimensions and my books to my recliner to try to figure out what this is. Those numbers ring a bell in the mind of anyone?

Vic

[Axel E]

The only bottlenecked cartridge fitting your description is the smokeless 9x57R, but never .360 D. The 9x58R S&S was a straight taper case. Maybe rechambered? As the gauge number 118,35 shows, it had a bore/land diameter between .340 and .349” at the proofhouse. The drilling was proofed before 1911 (Zella-Mehlis) or 1912 (Suhl). Nitro proof stamps, along with millimeter bore diameters, were introduced then only. So rifles for smokeless cartridges made before show no signs of a nitro proofmark. The 9x57R was brought out about 1905. Case and chamber dimensions were not normalisiert = standardized then.
The “crossed guns”with A.K. below mark seems to be the one of the wholesaler Akah. A reprint of the 1908 Akah catalog is available in Germany at least. The same design is shown on the front page.
I cannot positively identify the ?R.A.S.? initials, but among the 47 Schlegelmilch the names Richard, Robert and August are rather frequent. But so they are among other “S” gunmaking families like Schilling, Schlütter, Schneider, Schmidt, Seeber, Spörer and so on.

[sharps4590]

Ahh...so this is in all likelihood this builders version of the 9 X 57R with a slightly longer case and slightly larger rim? My other 9 X 57R wouldn't chamber as it's too big but it is post 1912. I'll try resizing some of my fired cases again and hopefully they will chamber. If not I have some 30-40 Krag on the way. Is this action strong enough for the 9 X 57R full house loads? I wondered with the dolls head instead of the Greener cross bolt. I have a nice reduced cast load I can use in it that is still more than adequate for deer & hogs. Oh...do you know off the top of your head if the 1-12 twist is normal for the 9 X 57? If not don't worry about it and look it up, surely I can find it somewhere.

Other than the stampings on the barrel I have no idea if it's been rechambered nor does the seller. I knew more about it than he did.

[mike ford]

Far be it from me to disagree with Axel, he certainly has more experience with these, than I. I'm not comfortable with this being a 9x57R( at least not 9x57R M88).We often see 9.3 s with bore diameter shown as 118,35, but I don't ever recall an M88 base cartridge with a chamber small enough to have a chamber cast with .460" head dia. Chambers are always larger than the cartridge, and for non-standardized cartridges, often considerably larger. Rim recesses are also often larger than necessary. Axel's mention of the 9x58R S&S (aka 9x57 1/2R S&S) is appropriate, because they also are usually marked with the 118,35, but as he says, they are differentiated by having a tapered case, and cannot be this cartridge. Also, the rifle is marked as 9.3x57 360 D, likely by the maker, because the proofhouse mark is the 118,35. While I suppose it could have been so marked later, it would not have been by an American, in this form. This means someone else, also likely with more experience than I, also thought it is 9.3x57R. Dixon shows quite a few cartridges based on the 360 case, but contrary to what you would think, they do not all have the same head diameter, some are a good bit larger than the 9.3x72R's(most common) usual .427".Combine this with a chamber being larger than the intended cartridge, I don't think the .460" diameter is impossible, while acknowledging that it would be unusual. This is just one man's opinion.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Thanks Axel & Mike. I'll get it shooting and it should shoot very good. Then whatever it is doesn't matter except for the mystery, if there is one. Someone took care of this thing as the bores are perfect. Even though I had the groove dimension from the long chamber cast I went ahead and slugged the bore. Same thing, as if I really expected different, .356-.357. I've poured over the chamber cast and my books until my eyes are crossed and do believe I can simply fireform the case from 30-40 Krag. Another friend in Idaho said he would put a box of empty Krags in the mail on Monday. I resized a couple cases in my 9 X 57 dies and still no go. The closest, next smallest thing I have that might have worked is the 9 X 71 Peterlongo. I believe it's .363, so for grins and giggles I tried it, still too big. But this is what makes it fun and educational!! If push comes to shove I'll get a cheap set of Lee Krag dies and grind out the sizing die like I did the 38-55 for the 9.3 X 75R.

[Axel E]

Oh...do you know off the top of your head if the 1-12 twist is normal for the 9 X 57?

The Mauser factory rifled their 9x57 sporter Barrels with a 360 mm = 14" twist. The short 12" twist also speaks for a heavy, jacketed bullet.

[sharps4590]

Thanks Axel, I was just going to start looking for the twist.

Mike, I know you've told me a half dozen times, what is your forming charge, 12-15 grs. of Bullseye?

[Axel E]

Here are the cover of the 1908 Albrecht Kind, Hunstig, = Akah wholesaler’s catalog, showing the A.K.trademark.

The page showing the drilling No. 126BS, a basic model of the many drillings offered then:

IMHO this drilling may be strong enough to contain the original 9x57R smokeless loads, pressure max 2800 bar. The chamber walls are rather thick. On a common drilling the rifle barrel is down, close to the hinge pin and underbolting. So it exerts less strain on the lockup than the shot barrels on top, far away from the breech lockup. A greener type crossbolt does not help the rifle barrel much, even if it is well fitted. Many of the crossbolts are really cosmetic only. In about 1900 literature there were never complaints on the strength of the “double T-grip” with side turning underlever like on this drilling. The other actions were merely more easily handling, but weaker in fact.

[ellenbr]

Axel, good eye on the AK trademark. There are a few exceptions like JJR - J.J. Reeb & HAL - H.A. Lindner, but most times 3 initials points to a maker & location. So it is highly possible the mechanic as R. Albrecht Suhl or R. Apel Suhl, etc.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[sharps4590]

When I received the drilling I took it apart and went over it with a magnifying glass. I saw the crossed rifles but thought it was A.A. beneath but had no idea as to what they meant. Thank the good Lord for you guys!

Given my experience with the other 9 X 57R drilling and the J.P. Sauer & Sohn Mauser I think if necessary I can easily get another 200 fps, up to around 1800, out of my cast load and still be well under straining the drilling. Current load is just 17 grs. of Unique with an open cell foam filler. If I do increase the charge I'll just have to watch carefully for those unexpected spikes of reduced loads.

[Axel E]

So it is highly possible the mechanic as R. Albrecht Suhl or R. Apel Suhl, etc.

Yes, but also Richard Adamy, Windeweg 3, Suhl,
R. may stand for Richard or 2x Rudolf or Robert Albrecht
Richard Ansorg, Siegelbach
But I cannot exclude the possibility of the many gunsmithes named S... in and around Suhl and Zella-Mehlis. Without further evidence and documentation I deem it impossible to pinpoint R.A.S. to a single gunsmith. Rate him by the Quality of the gun: If the gun is really well made, R.A.S. must have been a good man.

[mike ford]

Vic,
For fireforming, I start off with a guess as to powder weight, depending on the case, prior experience, and sometimes what the powder scale is set for.It's pretty hard to get too much powder, as long as you don't use a bullet. In a case like this, I think I would try 12 gr Bullseye, 1/4 sheet TP, fill with worn polishing media or grits(as I recall you use cream of wheat-ok too), and stop it off with more TP .Try 1 and if ok load more, and if not adjust powder. I have fired the trial in my basement shop-just make sure the wife is not at home.It is also messy, but in my shop, it's hard to see the difference. To make cases from 30-40, the first thing I would do would do would be to find where the main intereference is (I would smoke the case, but "Dykem" or "magic marker"will also work) and work mainly on that area. My guess would be the first interference is likely in the shoulder area.BTY start with FL sized cases. If you have or can find one, you might try a 303Brit case(to try, berdan primed military case is ok- also to use if you have primers), since they have a more gentle shoulder. I find 300 savage and 38-40 Win file/trim dies very useful to set shoulders back on longer cases.BTW,If you want to use a bullet to fire form, the lead bullet load above for your 9x57R should be ok. A thunder storm is starting here, so I need to shut down.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I found a once fired 303 Brit. case in a "junk cartridge box" our LGS keeps around for folks to scrounge through. Ralph gave it to me. Anyway, I brought it home, opened it up to 9mm and to fireform it used 15 grs. of Unique, open cell foam filler and the 248 gr. cast bullet. Worked like a champ! I compared the fired case to a fired 9 X 57R from my other drilling and this one has the shoulder 0.083 farther forward on the case along with it being about the same amount longer than the other. The only thing I can figure is either the builder, the customer or someone later down the line wanted to add a little capacity to the 9 X 57R. It still doesn't answer if this is the original chambering or if it's been rechambered. A couple boxes of Krag brass should be here by the end of the week and they'll be long enough, or nearly so. The Brit. case is pretty short. I think I measured .020.

[mike ford]

Vic,
After further consideration,based on your fireforming experience and dimensions of the chambercast,I now believe(maybe incorrectly)that this drilling has been rechambered in the US. Had it been rechambered in Germany, it would have a different headsize and would show a "crown"R proofmark, unless the proofhouse wasn't in operation. After the war, many German guns were brought back, and many returning GIs wanted to use them.Ammo was a problem and many differen't solutions to the problem were tried.Many of these guns were drillings and other combination guns chambered for rimmed versions of the m88 case. A common solution was to use 30-40 Krag cases(still pretty common at that time) to load 8x57IR, 7x57R, 9x57R, etc. ammo.This wasn't an especially good fit, but was about the best avaliable at the time.In fact, while helping my late friend and mentor Gene Enterkin's family, sort out his custom ammo loading business, we ran across a box of 9x57R ammo loaded with 30-40 cases.I don't think it is too "far fetched"to believe your drilling could have been rechambered to use 30-40 cases.This brass is a little hard to find now, but at the time it was pretty common.With only a couple exceptions( 9.3x72R D to 9.3x72R N being one) I am against rechambering these guns, understanding that I have no say in what happens to someone else's property. Once one has been rechambered, there is no choice but deal with it as best you can. If the gun wants 30-40 cases (or 303 withbullet loaded "out"), then that is what you should use. However, I think the gun should still be treated as a 9.3x57R 360, regarding pressures and bullets; instead of treating it as a 9x57R m88. Fortunately, you have a lot of experience that would make this pretty simple for you. I can see you having a lot of fun with this project.
Mike

[sharps4590]

That's a better explanation than mine I believe. I have always wondered about the difference in head diameter thinking it was too far off to have ever been a 9 X 57R. I don't recall the 360 Express head dimension but if it's been opened up it doesn't matter anyway. Another thing I have failed to mention but that has also kept me in a quandary is that the firing pins are the larger black powder type. That leads me to believe it was always intended for black powder but the doggone rifle cartridge kept throwing me off. I could try black in the rifle cartridge....it might work pretty good, especially if I'm going to run black in the shotgun barrels. It's going to be interesting whatever is done!