Stalking rifle

[chapmen]

Wow, nice rifle!
Is there an dealer or maker inscribing on the barrel ?

[USMC8487]

Chapmen,
Hey how are you doing. No makers mark that we have been able to find.

[Axel E]

I agree with Raimey and Mike in so far as „313“ was the pre-1911 gauge number for a 6.5mm caliber and 4.10 = April 1910 is the proof date. The pre-1912 service charge marking is 0.6 gramm = 9.25 gr GBlP = rifle flake powder behind a StmG = steel jacket bullet. The only 6.5 mm cartridge I found in old catalogs using such a load was the bottlenecked 6.5x27R P cartridge, a tiny Tesching or Rook & Rabbit number . According to the post-WW1 Steigleder, Berlin, catalog the 6.5x27R P cartridge used a 5.3 gramm = 82gr jacketed bullet in front of .6 smokeless rifle powder for 475 m/s = 1558 fps. The tapered 6.5x40R G “Tesching” used the same bullet in front of 0.8 gramm = 12gr of that powder for 590 m/s = 1935 fps . Both cartridges were obsolete by 1930. As the 6.5x27R P Tesching had a base of 9.6mm = .378” with a 11.0 mm = .433” rim, useable cases may be made from .38 Special brass.
If the rifle was rebored/rechambered/relined later, this was done outside Germany, as it is lacking the mandatory crown/R or (post-1940) eagle/I reproof mark.

[mike ford]

I still can't make out some of the markings, due to the size of the photos.A measuring tape is not sufficient to measure anything to a thousanth of an inch, but the bore is very close to 1/4",which puts it squarely on a 6.5mm cartridge of some type(6.5mm nominal cartridges of this age often had smaller than .264", some as small as .250").Also, the muzzle shows no evidence of having been relined as I previously thought. It's always easier to id the caliber of a rifle when you have it "in hand". If the powder charge of 0.6 grams is correct, the cartridge would be pretty small, something like 6.5x27R or 6.5x40R. I don't believe it is 6 grams, because this type action is not strong enough fo a cartridge using this much powder. I'm not familiar enough with bullets used in small 6.5mm cartridges to know which would likely use a steel jacketed bullet, but nitro proof indicates a jacketed bullet also. If you have this rifle "in hand", You should take it to a gunsmith or an experienced handloader and have a chamber cast made and have the bore "slugged", unless the chambercast extends well into the rifling. Then, head dia.,rim dia.,case length, and groove dia. of the barrel can be measured accurately. This info and a photo of the chambercast (to show shape) should be enough to id the cartridge.
Mike

[ellenbr]

I still can't make out some of the markings, due to the size of the photos.

Let me quote Ford for emphasis. I'd like to know who the nimrod is that designed this attribute for a forum based on minute touchmarks & stamps???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

BTW, a serial number in the 10k range is no indication of a "major" maker. For instance it is documented that Venus Waffenwerke Oscar Will, Zella - Mehlis, assigned serial number blocks not only to different models, but to the different independent action filers who subcontracted the work. Busdorf reports a murder case in which this habit was important: A single shot pistol, sold through Emil von Nordheim, Z-M, with a higher serial number was made and sold much earlier than an identical one with a lower, as it was assembled by another subcontractor. Some smallish makers started with quite high " Fantasy" numbers to make their "factory" appear more important. In Germany, serial numbering was prescribed by law only from 1940 on. Some gunmakers like Sauer & Sohn used total production serial numbers, applied at the "start" of a gun. So their serial numbers sometimes contradict the proof dates, as some guns remained in stock for some years before ordered, proofed and finished. Or, all the famous "Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig" bolt action rifles bear high E.Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, total production serial numbers, as they were actually made by Esha for Brenneke. I.Meffert, Suhl, on the other Hand used different number ranges for different models. At least they numbered their "Hubertus" safety guns in a seperate number range.

[ellenbr]

I would otherwise agree with you but here it seems that no one wanted to claim this sporting weapon being a Z-M tradegun. I wouldn't think that someone would go to the trouble to fabricate a fictitious numerical sequence value on a tradegun. A masking attempt that just doesn't seem worth the effort here.

kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Ernst Stiegleder of Suhl is one such mechanic that seems to have just plucked a large number out of the air for his sequence.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

And why would one not only go to the trouble to conjure up a fictitious numerical sequence but to stamp it on a component twice; that doesn't follow a logical approach.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

A pre-WW1 RWS bullet cataalog lists the P series 6.5mm bullets, used in both the 6.5x27R and 6.5x40R, with a diameter of 6.53 mm = .257".

[Axel E]

but here it seems that no one wanted to claim this sporting weapon being a Z-M tradegun.

I do! The rifle is a typical Zella-Mehlis product, patterned after the Sauer & Sohn "Tell" rifles, slightly modified. Such rifles were a staple of the Z-M guntrade from about 1900 to WW2. Over the years they came with several different lockwork designs, depending on actual maker. If such a thing was ordered from any of the Suhl gunmakers, other than S&S, they simply bought them in from the Z-M trade. Why make such simple breakopen rifles yourself when several guys 5 miles away make them in good quality by the wheelbarrow load? Anyhow, you cannot beat their Z-M prices. As this gun bears no maker's or retailer's name, it was obviously made "for the trade". Even to think about a major Suhl gunmaker like Haenel is simply ridiculous.
After some tricky enlarging of the proofmark photo it seems to me the maker originally stamped the then cartridge designation 6,5/27. Then the Z-M proofhouse stamped their ledger number below the proofdate, but for lack of space over the 6,5, Messing up the numbers.

[Axel E]

but to stamp it on a component twice; that doesn't follow a logical approach.

This does not make sense for a "big factory" too. But to repeat the Serial number on a visible part of a rifle made sense to a wholesaler, who could now identify the gun in his warehouse without getting a screwdriver to remove the foreend first.

[USMC8487]

Sorry men if this Rifle is causing any issue or the posts of pictures are not great. I used what I had, and tried my best to get proper photos. If this is giving any one headaches, I apologize. I have been pretty stumped on it myself. You all seem to have come up with way more info than I have come up with in the count of 8 months. Definatly have been banging my head against the wall trying to figure this one out. I really appreciate everyone who spoke on this rifle. Very very intelligent people on here, and I sure hope to speak with you all often.
A man once told me at a young age, "Some of the most interesting and intelligent people in the world, look you right in the eye, and if you never say hello, you will never know the history and intelligence of the world". "If you never meet a stranger, but speak to every one, then no one around you is a stranger, a simple conversation, can befriend and better not only you, but the world as well".
I never understood what he meant until I got older, and he sure was right. The older the wiser, the younger generation of today, are screwed!!!

[Axel E]

BTW, discussing one gun on at least two different forums (GGCA and doublegunshop) on three different threads at the same time simply leads to confusion and makes answering tedious!

[Axel E]

Such cheap, Zella-Mehlis made break open rifles were offered bx Adolf Frank, Hamburg, in his ALFA 1911 export catalog, page 429. Number B6, though offered here in 8.15x46R only, seems to be made by the same maker. The cheapest centerfire break open single shot rifles offered: