Another German Drilling - Krupp-

[Tau]

Hi

Hope it is OK to make my first post here. Awesome site and the best English info I could find on old German rifles.

I have a Gun collectore I buy a rifle from each year. Some not so fancy others old etc. Yesteday I walked into his safe without any idea what I wanted. I handled all kinds of Mausers, Austrian and German rifles.

I ended up standing at the double section where a Krieghoff .470 NE stands that I have booked many years ago until I can find the funds to buy it. I also handle it for a couple of minutes thinking of the day she will leave the safe with me.

Anyway next to this .470 there is 4 drillings. A Brenneke, Ferlach, Sauer& Son and the Krupp. All of them are art / rifles in my opinion. My friend said teh Krupp is for sale as it is a Cartridge that is obsolete and I wont get ammo for her........

He gave me a price on the rifle and I took it before I even knew anything about the caliber.

It is a 7.8x57JR if I am correct and the shotgun barrels ar 12br , but after much reading on here and the net I wonder if it is not 16br.











IS this a common rifle? I told the wife I bought it to resell...... never. I will use her for Feral Pig hunting in a Nature reserve where they create massive damage.

[Tau]

[Tau]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=5456349

Nice info I found.


IMHO, the "LK" is the barrel maker's mark - most likely Louis Kelber, who AFAIK was active near Suhl.

That mark was used by the Gebrüder Kelber barrelmaking company, founded by Louis Kelber in 1894, owned then by Louis, Robert and Wilhelm Kelber (WK).

They usually used either an L stamp or an LK.

In 1927 the "Gebr. Kelber" company was dissolved, but both Louis and Wilhelm Kelber started again on their own, Louis using the "LK" stamp and Wilhelm the well-known "WK".

Your Drilling appears to have been made the year before they started separate companies.

[ellenbr]

Looks like it passed thru the Zella - Mehlis proof facility in 1933.



What is in the highlighted area?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

It is a Kerner-Anson Action Body with what looks to be a proof date of July 1933, possibly chambered in 8x57??R.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Heinrich Louis Klett owned Heinrich Klett & Söhne of Zella - Mehlis during this time? Not sure if he was still focused on tube making.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Tau,
7.8x57 is the common designation for 8x57JR, as you were told.However,some will accept 8x57JRS ammo.You can check this by "slugging" the barrel( drive a lead ball into the barrel and measure the largest diameter)and seeing if a .323" bullet will fit easily into a case fired in the rifle and not resized. As far as the caliber of the shotgun is concerned, if it is 12 ga. as you were informed, it will have a 12 in a circle stamped on the flat of the shotgun barrels; if ,as you suspect ,it is 16 ga., it will have a 16 in a circle. It will likely be "short" chambered, 2 5/8" if 12 ga and 2 1/2- 2 9/16" if 16 ga. If there is a 70 stamped near the ga. designation, it has 2 3/4" chambers.
Mike

[Tau]

Looks like it passed thru the Zella - Mehlis proof facility in 1933.



What is in the highlighted area?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It is the numbers 4319

Thx
Tau

[Tau]

Tau,
7.8x57 is the common designation for 8x57JR, as you were told.However,some will accept 8x57JRS ammo.You can check this by "slugging" the barrel( drive a lead ball into the barrel and measure the largest diameter)and seeing if a .323" bullet will fit easily into a case fired in the rifle and not resized. As far as the caliber of the shotgun is concerned, if it is 12 ga. as you were informed, it will have a 12 in a circle stamped on the flat of the shotgun barrels; if ,as you suspect ,it is 16 ga., it will have a 16 in a circle. It will likely be "short" chambered, 2 5/8" if 12 ga and 2 1/2- 2 9/16" if 16 ga. If there is a 70 stamped near the ga. designation, it has 2 3/4" chambers.
Mike

Thx Mike

Does this mean that only Short 12ga can be used in the rifle?

I have been googling the world flat the last 24hrs and the history behind these drillings are amazing.

[Tau]

It is a Kerner-Anson Action Body with what looks to be a proof date of July 1933, possibly chambered in 8x57??R.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

So does this mean the builder got a barrel from Krupp and action from them and then did the engraving and stock and final fitment and finish?

Thx
Tau

[ellenbr]

What is between the 4319 & the forend hanger? Some sort of trademark? Krupp did not make small arms tubes, only the steel for such efforts. A licensed tube maker was supplied with bar stock and converted said bar stock into a rough tube. After that I believe you are spot on.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

Tau,
It means it was made to shoot 2 5/8" shells in the shot gun, there is often argument over whether 2 3/4" shells can be used in 2 1/2-2 9/16 " chambered shot guns, and 2 5/8" is even closer to 2 3/4". What this means is you have to decide for yourself which shells to use. Did you find a 12 in a circle?
Mike

[Tau]

Thx Mike and Raimey

It is a 16 bore. We have a horrible license system in South Africa and if we are lucky if we get a license in under 2 months so only then will I C the rifle again. Sometimes we wait up to 2 1/2 years!!!! I am a dedicated hunter and sport shooter which makes it a little better.

When I have her in my hands I will first clean her and then take pics with my Canon D50 so that you guys can do a proper inspection. The owner has a Brenneke, Jp Sauer & Son and Ferlach Drillings. They are however 8.8 calibers.

[mike ford]

Tau,
You will find a lot of use for your drilling and enjoy it a lot. Since you live in South Africa I suspect European ammo will be avaliable.What you are looking for are 65mm( 2 1/2-2 9/16")shot shells. The most common 8.8 ammo for your friend's drillings is either 9.3x72R or 9.3x74R. If 9.3x74R, this is a good caliber for Africa. There are several versions of 9.3x72R, one of which can be easily confused for 9.3x74R. This is the 9.3x72 Sauer, which is really pretty rare, but since one of your friend's drillings is a Sauer I thought it was worth mentioning. If it was made before 1912, it won't have the case length shown. If it does show the case length as 72, he should determine whether it is the Sauer version or not. If you could post photos of his drillings proof marks, we might be able to help him also.
Mike

[Tau]

I studied Nature Conservation and worked for South African National Parks before I warked for my dad (last 9 years...). I still help with problem animal control in my area in Provincial reserves and we hunt feral pigs (earopean Wildboar x Domistic pig). I use my .375 Ruger 20" Alaskan. I think the Drilling was made for this purpose.

My friend knows what caliber his guns are and their history, but the one I bought he didn't have info on and somebody told him there is no way that he will find cases for it. With your help and some Google I now know that i can find cases for it or make from .444 Marlin and have told him this, however he is a great friend and sticks to his offer that I can buy it. I must share it here that I bought her for a steal just for the looks as I didn't care if I could fire the rifle or not the engraving and finish is art to me. I paid $800...............He wants way more for the Brenneke, Ferlach and Jp Sauer & son. I won't sell the rifle as I don't doe painting, watches or anything else that is remotely collector like this is my "moment" of artistic expression and it goes BOOOOM.




p.s: by Moment I mean this time until I find another GErman rifle for sale then I will have another moment. Like a Model 66 Mauser.......