9 X 57 anyone?

[mike ford]

Hook,
Welcome to the board. I hope you also joined the GGCA, we have several members in Alabama and are sometimes able to get together. If you go to the gun shows (AGCA sponsored) in B'ham you may run across some of us at the table with all the drillings. The person at this table (actually group of tables) is kind enough to give an old cripple a place to sit, so I spend some time there on Saturdays. He is a member, himself. A Director and a life member are often there as well. I suspect your experience with the 9x57 will be a little different than others of us. Since you started out with a new barrel you won't have to deal with undersized, worn, or rough barrel problems. You are likely to have a happy loading experience with yours. I live 22mi north of Auburn on US 431, maybe we can get together sometimes, it seems we have common interests, including barrel work. If you join the GGCA, we will even forgive you if you say "roll tide", instead of "WAR EAGLE".
Mike

[Hook]

Thanks for the welcome! I look forward to learning from this group.

I seldom go to the B'ham show, but quite often have a table at the Montgomery shows. I don't do much buying/selling....just mostly get a table so I can sit there and enjoy all aspects of the event. Occasionally something good happens, like back in March when a friend offered to trade me the Kohle rifle for a couple of lever actions I had up for sale. You just never know what might pop up.

I'm guessing you must be located near La Fayette. My wife was born there. Most of her family is located near Daviston and north of Dadeville (Eagle Creek). That's a good part of the world to be from. We actually met while attending Southern Union Jr College.

And, as a 1972 graduate of Auburn (BCE), you'll never hear roll tide around me or my family.

[sharps4590]

Hook, I haven't worked with any powders other than those previously mentioned. That's something I need to do.

[Axel E]

Axel, I had looked through them and most were with powders that I don't have and/or didn't include powder charges.

You asked for "any good 9x57 load data", not for "load data for the powders I have on hand".

[mike ford]

Hook,
I actually live in LaFayette, within sight of the Courthouse. Daviston and Eagle Creek are familiar to me, one of my aunts was raised near Eagle Creek. We could very well be "family of family". While living in Columbus Ga., before retiring from the Corps of Engineers, I always had a table at the Columbus shows and did it exactly the way you did.
Mike, class of 67,BBC

[Diz]

Hook,

I have been playing with this program for years and try to carefully document predicted against actual. I have found some very surprising things especially about the ways things are affected by small changes. So just for fun I reran the load using the CIP Max Pressure listed at 40,611 psi or 2,800 bar. This is the number attributed to the load but someone else will have to verify it's accuracy. The closest I could get without exceeding CIP Max with everything else being the same was:

49.9 grains IMR 4320

Pmax 40,436 psi (pretty close)

Fill 91%

Mv 2,282 fps

Pro burn 96.42%

Bal eff 31.2%

Do Not Load This! THIS LOAD IS DANGEROUS! I only show it to see where it would go. Statistical deviation would always put some shots over max with possible dire consequences. The pressure curve starts to get very steep as you add powder and 0.1 grain sends it over the max by more than a bit. I will strongly advise caution if you crank this up as velocity is NOT a good indicator of pressure.

Thanks, Diz

[Diz]

Hook,

I have been playing with this program for years and try to carefully document predicted against actual. I have found some very surprising things especially about the ways things are affected by small changes. So just for fun I reran the load using the CIP Max Pressure listed at 40,611 psi or 2,800 bar. This is the number attributed to the load but someone else will have to verify it's accuracy. The closest I could get without exceeding CIP Max with everything else being the same was:

49.9 grains IMR 4320

Pmax 40,436 psi (pretty close)

Fill 91%

Mv 2,282 fps

Pro burn 96.42%

Bal eff 31.2%

Do Not Load This! THIS LOAD IS DANGEROUS! I only show it to see where it would go. Statistical deviation would always put some shots over max with possible dire consequences. The pressure curve starts to get very steep as you add powder and 0.1 grain sends it over the max by more than a bit. I will strongly advise caution if you crank this up as velocity is NOT a good indicator of pressure.

Thanks, Diz

[Kiwi_bloke]

Have you carefully measured the bore? I assume you have if you are swaging down bullets, but not all 9x57 are .354"; some are .356 and some .358". Mine (based on a Mauser 98 action), was one of the latter and it could use 35-calibre Hornady round-nose bullets without needing to swage them. It was quite accurate.

I won't guarantee it solves all your accuracy problems, but one thing I now invariably use is a Hornady bullet concentricity tool. This measures bullet run-out and then corrects it. What this means is that, if the necks of necked-up ammo are bent by the expander button being off-centre, it helps correct that and hence the shoulder alignment when the cartridge is fired. This adds up to straighter made ammo that also shoots straighter - even improving after a firing. You can use an RCBS case-master to tell you if there is case-neck-run-out, but that doesn't fix it. However the case-master can indicate how to best arrange the die/expander to overcome some of that problem. Exchanging the blunt-expander for a replacement tapered one, for instance, seems to improve these sorts of problems. The initial case-neck expansion is probably best done with a long-tapered expander such as C-H make. Just tell them what you want to do. Be sure to use Imperial Neck Sizing Wax to avoid any problems like lube-dents.

I should have data. I'll see what I can find. It's a good practical cartridge that was popular in Europe for stag and boar and also in Africa for meat hunting. It used to be the largest commonly available size in full-stocked rifles.

[Kiwi_bloke]

I looked it up. My rifle grouped 250-grain Hornady's into 1.25" at 100 yards.

Loading data is contained in ADI reloading booklets, (1st and 3rd editions). These each give 2 loads for each of 2 bullet weights. For example a 250-grain bullet is pushed out at a high stepping 2,250 ft./sec, (in a 24” barrel). I'm assuming you won't have access to these booklets. If you send me a PM with an email address, I'll scan the page/s. ADI supply Hodgdon in the US, so there will be a powder equivalent. I'll send you the ADI-Hodgdon conversion chart also.

[Hook]

You asked for "any good 9x57 load data", not for "load data for the powders I have on hand".

Yes sir, I did. Guess I was just hoping for a hit or hits.

Mike, maybe we can meet up at the next B'ham show and compare notes.

Diz, after looking at the first run you gave me, I was mentally thinking 48 gr of 4320 might be close to max. If 49.x gr is over the line, what does your program say about 48 gr? Also, is this commercial software or something that you have worked up or modified? I've been wondering what the 'pro burn' and 'ballistics efficiency' data refers to and how you use it?

Kiwi, I'd love to get my hands on those tables. I actually emailed Hodgdon to ask what they might have and got this link:

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Common%20...Cartridges.pdf

This may be what you have. Sounds kinda like it. I responded with a request that he extrapolate loads from other calibers such as the 358 Win, but he refused....said only published data could be passed along. Just in case, I've sent you a PM with my email address.

[Diz]

Hook,

This is a commercial program called "Quick Load" and it works very well but it took a long time to figure out all the details and how to enter the data. You know garbage in = garbage out. There are many variables that have to be considered which I believe they don't actually say it is a loading program. You have to figure out where you want to go with the info it provides. I use it all the time but I am very careful about my approach. The nice thing is you can easily compare different powders to find the one best suited for the cartridge combination you are considering.

Pro burn is the calculated percent of propellant burned by the time the bullet exits the barrel. 100% being ideal but rarely achievable.

Ball eff or ballistic efficiency is the percentage of propellant energy available to what is actually converted into bullet energy.

48 grains IMR 4320

Pmax 36,350 psi

Fil 95.04%

Mv 2,200 fps

Pro burn 95%

Bal eff 30.1%

Again this is calculated so use it carefully but I would be interested on how it compares to published data. It is a way to fine tune the calculation.

Can anyone out there confirm the CIP pressure maximum for this cartridge?

Thanks, Diz

[Diz]

Hook, I copied the wrong fill percentage it is actually 87.5% for the 48 grain load. The rest is correct. Se what I mean. Thanks Diz

[Hook]

Diz, this is really good stuff. I understand that it should be used only as a guide and then very carefully at that. However, it is much better than 'shooting in the dark' which is what I would be doing otherwise. Thanks again for your efforts. After the deer season is over, I'll be tinkering around with the loads for this rifle and will share anything I can with you.

And, for what it's worth, I would think the CIP pressure for the 9X57 would be similar to that of the 8X57, at least for M98 actions.

[mike ford]

Different people seem to have accuracy problems, and blame it on different things, here are some of my experiences, just to give things to check for. When I bought the rifle(actually I just wanted the G33-40 action) it was in a less than great Mannl. style full length stock, with a roll over cheekpiece, made by Bishop from about the lowest grade of American Black Walnut available. I changed it over to a slimmer European style full length with a "hogback" stock and German cheekpiece. For the front sling attachment, instead of a swivel I used a MS style loop with a horizontal screw through a lug, soldered to the barrel. When the accuracy proved unacceptable, the first thing I did was to relieve the inletting at the front of the barrel lug and elongate the hole in the stock and the lug, through which the horizontal screw passes. This helped some, but the groups were still not good enough for me to hunt with. This was when I changed from 250 gr bullets to 200 gr. RN and reduced the powder charge until I could get less than 2" groups. I shot one Reh with it and went back to the 7x57R and 8x57IRS. After returning to the states, I took the 9x57 back out to try again. I discovered, this time, that there was a crack in the stock from the recoil lug to the magazine mortise. I repaired this with a small machine screw/nut epoxied into a trough across the crack, let in to be concealed. This helped some, but in checking to see if the cross bolt held up to recoil, I noticed another crack from the magazine mortise to the trigger. After repairing it the same way, I never got around to shooting for group. This is a long way of advising that if anyone is having accuracy problems, check the sling attachment inletting, if it goes through the forearm, and check carefully for cracks in the stock.
Someone mentioned uneven expansion of case necks when forming cases from 8x57.I also find this can be a problem when expanding, using the 9mm expander button. Over the years, I have had better results by fireforming rather than expanding, even if I have to fireform twice. If using the expander, the necks are often uneven enough that trimming to square them up leaves them short. I usually make 8x57 cases from military 30-06 match brass, using a file/trim die. This leaves them at the "trim to" length and having to further shorten them to square the necks is not good. If it will not be possible to fireform, sometimes I might use a long tapered expander I made from a 1/2"-20 bolt to use in an "M" die, or some expander dies for straight wall cases have this same thread.( I make these up in different sizes for expanding necks, belling necks, hydraulically removing Berdan primers, etc.: all in all, very convenient)
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, I'm glad you posted that, thank you. I have a 1903 M/S that is center of bull for the first shot from a cold barrel. After that it walks although not as bad as the one I believe Hook mentioned. The wood in the mortise around the recoil lug was really soft and wollered out a bit so I glass bedded that but precious little improvement was seen....other than I know that isn't the trouble. I am going to check the front sling loop and see what's going on there. I knew they could present problems but for whatever reason never bothered to check it.

My 9 X 57 has a keyed barrel and a very worn bore and it shoots better than the M/S.

Vic