1947 Otto Reif 16ga SxS Shotgun Question

[motorgun]

Just bought a German SXS made by Otto Reif in Suhl in May 1947. From what I have read, it appears Reif sourced parts from Simson and assembled guns to sell to Russian officers.

This one has 29 1/2" Krupp 3 ring barrels and Simson marks on the receiver flats. The fit and finish are excellent and it is extremely tight. Snaps shut like some of my best guns.

Problem is the barrels are only marked as being proofed for black powder. I found the following which explains that nitro proof marks were not used in 1947, however, it does not clarify if it is safe to use modern ammo in a 1947 Suhl gun:

"....up to the end of 46, the Suhl proofhouse continued to use the 1940 proof stamps. There simply wasn't enough time to design, make and have approved new proofmarks, especially for political considerations. For 1947 new proofmarks were finally introduced, consisting of the "pick and sole" of the Suhl city crest, topped by the letters M,N or SP. The 15/DR/1 in an oval was the then code for the Suhl proofhouse authority. As there was no shotgun ammo production in eastern Germany then, the proofhouse had to make do with Russian-made proof cartridges supplied by the Soviets. As these cartridges were of very variable quality they sometimes missed the German, later CIP standards for nitro proof pressure, so the SP = black powder proofmark only was applied, in spite of the proofloads being smokeless. The Soviets, the only customers, did not care about this nicety.
In 1951 the new-founded GDR gained control over the guntrade and introduced "new" proofmarks, a simplified form of the 1893 -1939 ones. From 1974 on they again used marks very similar to the 1947-1950 ones...."

Would modern ammo be safe in this gun?

[oskar]

Just my opinion, it was built post war and chambered for 70mm/2.75" shells I suspect it as intended for modern smokeless shells. That said I wouldn't be running 1 1/4oz Magnums or Steel through it, but it should thrive on 1 oz lead or 7/8 oz bismuth/ITX, my pre war 65mm guns do(loaded in 2.5" cases). That is just an opinion.

[motorgun]

Oscar - thanks for your opinion. I usually use light loads in my older guns as I find them effective and I do not like unnecessary recoil.

[mike ford]

By the proof marks,it was proofed in May 1947 chambered for 70mm(2 3/4") 16ga shells, so that is not just an opinion-it is fact.I wouldn't be afraid to use 1-1/8 oz(my regular ammo) loads in it. I also wouldn't use steel, not because of pressure, but because it would likely ruin the barrels.
Mike

[motorgun]

Do you think this is a box lock with side plates or some kind of sidelock without pins? I will take it to my gunsmith the next time I visit and have him take a look at it. I'm afraid to mess with it.

[ellenbr]

Pull the plate, but it looks like a sideplated A&D action body with upper and lower intercepting scears. Reif was a scoundrel and run out of Suhl on a rail. Krupp 3 Ringe is about as good as it gets.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

This one is very similar to yours and about 1 year younger:

http://www.uahunter.com.ua/forum/pro...hl-t28217.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[motorgun]

Rainey - thanks for the great info. I bought the gun at an auction for $1000 and I think it is worth at least that. It appears well made and of good materials (Simson & Krupp). It should make a good field gun.

[ellenbr]

Bargain and even better if it has upper and lower intercepting scears, something quite uncommon on post WWII on a German A&D action body. Most were Kerner-Anson variants. A bit more than a field gun. If you have the plates off please post images of the arms/levers. I remain curious if Edgar Strempel was involved. I'd really like to have a gander at Reif's ledgers. I've seen an image of Otto Reif & another road course driver(Simson sponsored I'm sure) and there are images of Otto Reif's son Walter who continued the thrill ride w/ Simson centered on motorcycles. He was born in 1909 and met his demise mid June 1928 while on a practice run. If his son was born in 1909, I'd hazard a guess Otto Reif was born some 1/4 century earlier in the mid 1880s. So he would have been in his mid 30s or early 40s when Simson auto racing really took off. Then post WWII he would have been in his 60s. I wonder if it all adds up or if he had another son named Otto?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Well, I was close. Otto Reif was born in 1884 and expired in 1951. He was employed by 1911 with Simson as a "Systemmacher" being familiar with weapons and auto engines. He was drafted in WWI as a "Waffenmeister-Stellvertreter" and looks to have been some sort of automotive engineer along with being an auto racer. He won several races and just may have been instrumental in putting Simson on the map regarding the Supra while they were making rubber baby buggy bumpers. Seems he has a great-grandson in Ilmenau working as an automotive engineer today.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Here he is named with Karl Kappler as a racer:

http://www.simson-automobile.de/gabelbachrennen.htm

Another of his co-pilots was Richard Bauer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[motorgun]

Rainey,

Very interesting history. I am curious as to how Otto got his hands on the Simson parts in 1947.

I took the gun to my place in the country and test fired it today with 1oz, No. 8 hunting loads. It functioned flawlessly and ejects strongly. The safety resets automatically which I don't care for but most guns do. It seems to fit me well and both barrels hit to point of aim. Very pleasant recoil. There were a lot of doves around and I was almost tempted to try it on something other than tree limbs.

I will definitely post some pics when I get the sideplates off. My gunsmith is adding a leather pad to one of my Spanish shotguns and when I go to pick it up I will bring this one along. He really likes European guns and is one of the few authorized Purdey repair guys in the US.

[ellenbr]

I'd say Reif either had a stash or he brokered a deal with Edgar Strempel. I've always held, never let a Brit work on a German sporting weapon. I don't think that I picked that up from Highsmith.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[motorgun]

My gunsmith is actually American but apprenticed at Purdey in the past. He has done good work on a couple of Merkels for me.