Wrapping my head around cartridges

[N9NWO]

I own an older German combination gun. That lead me to being interested in German guns (plus having lived in German and holding a Jaegger license).

In the states I use an TC Encore (break open, interchangeable barrels) which is similar to what German guns do. What I have learned is that rimmed cartridges are far easier to extract compared to modern rimless cartridges when using a break open gun.

E. Arthur Brown has been one of the best sources for Encore barrels. He has pushed a series of wildcats that he calls Bench Rest Magnums (BRM). These cartridges are based on the .30-30 case (52mmR).

He has a .224 BRM that is similar to the 5.6x52R (.22 Savage Highpower). Also he has a 6.5 BRM that is far more powerful (uses 140 gn. bullet) that is more powerful than the .25-32 (6.5x52R). I do not know if either of these rounds would work in German guns using the European calibers.

What I am not as clear on is European cartridges. Or how to find them here in the states. A few that I have ran across are 6.5x57R, 7x57R, 7x65R. What is the parent case?

Cheaper than Dirt does carry some European cartridges.

http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html
http://www.eabco.com/6.5_mm_cartridges.html
http://www.eabco.com/65BRM.html

[mike ford]

N9NWO,
To start, what is the caliber of your combination gun? Maybe that is the one to start with. You can find a lot of different European calibers in the US, try J&G sales, Huntington Die Specilities, and Buffalo Arms. You can load, yourself, almost all calibers found in any of the German hunting guns. I too, lived and hunted in Germany, and while there took the chance to scrounge up and bring back all the brass I could. I was there when they were changing from Berdan to Boxer primers, but load even the Berdan primed cases. The parent case for the cartridges you mentioned was the 8x57M88, which quickly had a rim added for use in breakopen guns. This cartridge is known now as 8x57IR(there were a couple other versions), the 6.5x57R , 7x57R(actually came from 7x57M93), 8x57IRS, 9x57R, 5.6x57R, and a couple lesser known came from it. Another mod of the M88 case was to lengthen it to 64 mm and then add a rim., from this came the 7x75R,8x65R and RS, and the 6.5x65R. The 9.3x74R was the parent case for 8x75R and RS, and the 7x75R vom Hofe Super Express.There are a couple other families of German cartridges we can discuss, when the subject comes up. BTW, where did you live and hunt in Germany, and when. Maybe we can hear(read) some of your stories.
Mike

[N9NWO]

N9NWO,
To start, what is the caliber of your combination gun? Maybe that is the one to start with. You can find a lot of different European calibers in the US, try J&G sales, Huntington Die Specilities, and Buffalo Arms. You can load, yourself, almost all calibers found in any of the German hunting guns. I too, lived and hunted in Germany, and while there took the chance to scrounge up and bring back all the brass I could. I was there when they were changing from Berdan to Boxer primers, but load even the Berdan primed cases. The parent case for the cartridges you mentioned was the 8x57M88, which quickly had a rim added for use in breakopen guns. This cartridge is known now as 8x57IR(there were a couple other versions), the 6.5x57R , 7x57R(actually came from 7x57M93), 8x57IRS, 9x57R, 5.6x57R, and a couple lesser known came from it. Another mod of the M88 case was to lengthen it to 64 mm and then add a rim., from this came the 7x75R,8x65R and RS, and the 6.5x65R. The 9.3x74R was the parent case for 8x75R and RS, and the 7x75R vom Hofe Super Express.There are a couple other families of German cartridges we can discuss, when the subject comes up. BTW, where did you live and hunt in Germany, and when. Maybe we can hear(read) some of your stories.
Mike

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...unschweig)-SxS

Thanks for the information. That helps to make sense of the cartridges.

My G. L. Rasch appears to be a 16 ga x 11mm in black powder. It may have been made before 1891.

I am thinking of buying a combination gun from Blaser (BD14, bockdrilling) or one of their drillings.

I did over 13 trips to German (and one to Italy). Lived in K-town 1996-1997

The ones mentioned are they the most common in Europe?

[oskar]

I would go to the Blaser sight and see what cartridges they chamber their firearms in and then decide what kind of hunting you plan to do. Discuss your hunting plans with a Blaser sales rep, it's not like your buying off the rack at your local sports shop.

[sharps4590]

If you don't reload, you should. And, as you've no doubt learned, there is no rhyme nor reason to the naming of cartridges, here or abroad.

[oskar]

Random thoughts on selecting a drilling/combination firearm.

1. Decide which is more important, birds, big game or small game. If birds are your main interest for this firearm and big game is secondary a double shotgun/single rifle would work best. If your main interest is big game and just want to pot a bird or bunny after the tags are full a double rifle/single shotgun might be in your best interest.

2. Hunting terrain can influence your selection, I hunt mainly heavy cover, second growth forests, waist high sage and Manzanita and Russian olive groves. Seldom do I get a second shot at an animal but have many very close shots so a single rifle barrel works well with the option of buckshot and slugs in the shotgun barrels. Open country might favor a double rifle for a longer range shot at poorly hit game.

3. Your intended game will have influence on your selection also. If moose on down are your main interest the 6.5-8mm round should work fine with the 6.5’s marginal on really large elk and moose. If big bears in AK or a trip to Africa for bigger plains game and critters the can stomp or eat you a 9.3 would not be out of the question and it will work just fine for anything smaller.

I have combination guns in 222 Rem /12ga, 5.6x50R/12ga and a drilling in 6.5x58R/16ga for coyote hunting. For big game and large predator calling(bear and cougar) I have a drilling in 7x57Rx16ga I doubt I’ll hunt anything larger that elk.

Everyone has their own way of doing things and what works for me might seem totally foreign to someone else. I‘ve spent 58 years hunting, 18 of them living a subsistence lifestyle hunting, trapping, doing ADC work and generally living on what we caught, killed, gardened and gathered. I find predator hunting and bird hunting calls to me the most. Last year I hunted for six months in WI, MT, WA, UT, AZ and NM all birds and coyotes. I live in the back of my Econoline van and just travel and hunt, no job and no responsibilities.

Good Luck and I hope all your guns have as many memories as mine. To me guns are more like a good hand tool and hope they will get lots of use and last as long as I do.

AWS

[mike ford]

N9NWO,
The advice you get from any of us will depend on the experience and needs we have. You seem to prefer Blaser, and Blaser is a good outfit.You seen to be set on a bock drilling, and if I remember correctly,the small caliber barrel on a Blaser bockdrilling is adjustable for POI. This makes it possible to account for different loads(European and American ammo may not have the same POI, even different makes of American ammo won't).My generic advice is for a 16ga 2 3/4" standard drilling with 6.5,7,or 8x57R rifle(alt. 7x65R),with 60-65 cm barrels, a scope in claw,swing, or rail mounts and an einstecklauf(insert barrel) in either 22 MRF or LR. A quick shortening sling, like sold by the GGCA is also helpful. Simpson Ltd. usually has a variety of drillings for sale.With some of these, however, you may have to have some work done(or do it your self), usually not too extensive. A lot of these are shown as 8x57IR, but were made post War. Post War 8x57s are usually really IRS. Take a look and see what you think, look under "long guns" "other Manufacturers". If you are built like Charles Barkely, a 12Ga may not be too heavy, but for me it is.The same for 30" barrels. This is just my opinion, other experienced people will have differing opinions. I have been hunting with Drillings since about 1965.BTW if you have to choose between a scope and an einstecklauf, choose the scope and get an EL later.
Mike

[N9NWO]

N9NWO,
The advice you get from any of us will depend on the experience and needs we have. You seem to prefer Blaser, and Blaser is a good outfit.You seen to be set on a bock drilling, and if I remember correctly,the small caliber barrel on a Blaser bockdrilling is adjustable for POI. This makes it possible to account for different loads(European and American ammo may not have the same POI, even different makes of American ammo won't).My generic advice is for a 16ga 2 3/4" standard drilling with 6.5,7,or 8x57R rifle(alt. 7x65R),with 60-65 cm barrels, a scope in claw,swing, or rail mounts and an einstecklauf(insert barrel) in either 22 MRF or LR. A quick shortening sling, like sold by the GGCA is also helpful. Simpson Ltd. usually has a variety of drillings for sale.With some of these, however, you may have to have some work done(or do it your self), usually not too extensive. A lot of these are shown as 8x57IR, but were made post War. Post War 8x57s are usually really IRS. Take a look and see what you think, look under "long guns" "other Manufacturers". If you are built like Charles Barkely, a 12Ga may not be too heavy, but for me it is.The same for 30" barrels. This is just my opinion, other experienced people will have differing opinions. I have been hunting with Drillings since about 1965.BTW if you have to choose between a scope and an einstecklauf, choose the scope and get an EL later.
Mike

What I have noticed with combination guns is that they tend to be light weight (mine is). Thus 20 ga makes more sense than 12 ga due to recoil. Nor would I want more than a 7mm using a 160 gn bullet and a case no longer than 70mm. Again recoil in a light gun. A drilling with dual 12 ga might be able to do a larger rifle cartridge as the gun is more massive.

[mike ford]

N9NWO,
For practical purposes, 12ga drillings won't allow larger rifles than 16 ga drillings(modern calibers).Drillings are very avaliable in 16ga/9.3x74R,which is in the same class as 375 H&H Mag Flanged. A 12ga drilling adds width and height for reasons other than the rifle caliber.If I remember correctly,you can even have 20ga drillings in the normal(incl 9.3x74R)rifle calibers,a small additional price might be required for some calibers.For world wide hunting, I put together a set, for my own use(those days are gone). This is an o/u combination gun in 16ga/7x57R, extra 16ga/16ga(F&M),extra 16ga/16ga(cyl/cyl) 60 cm long, and o/u double rifle barrels in 9.3x74R. included are scopes for combo and doublerifle barrels as well as an einstecklauf in 22 mag.I told the story of this in "A Combination For All Seasons" in the GGCA special on combination guns. The point of the whole drill is you can put together a set that will meet your own requirements/desires without regard to what ever someone else might think you need.
Mike