Cartridge ID help

[sharps4590]

A combination gun I ordered arrived today and I have yet been able to identify it. The gun is I. Kowar in Amberg from late 1870's - early 1880's I would guess. It's a short bottleneck cartridge of .440 groove dia. I have a chamber cast and here's the dimensions.

Groove dia: .440
neck dia: .480
head dia: .523
case length: 1.96 as best I can make out...which must be correct as that is the 50mm conversion.

15 cartridges came with it 12 of which have been fired, evidently in this gun. They were made from 45-70 brass and they were left full length of 2.1. It has 8 lands of Henry type, very narrow. Grooves are .140 as best I can measure, lands approx. .050. The cartridges came in an oak block and on the bottom of the block it was marked "45 Danish". I haven't found that one yet.

Stamped on the rifle barrel is 11 and what is a 1 over a 2 (with no mark between) X 50

COTW doesn't list it and now I'm off to Handloaders conversion handbook. Any help appreciated.

[m-4]

11.5 x 50R Werder M69?

[sharps4590]

By Jove m-4, I believe that's it!! I had so many dimensions running through my head yesterday I did not deduct the approx. .2 of the longer neck of the 45-70 case. I completely overlooked that difference from the chamber cast. When I compared the cast to the Werder in the Handloaders conversion book it's closer than anything else. Amazing how you get something so stuck in your head you overlook the obvious. Thanks.

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
I don't know if a groove dia of .440 will fit the Werder, which is usually closer to .454-6"(assuming a good measurement is possible).Did you read my article on loading Generic 11MMs? Your cartridge seems close to the one I called 11.15x51R, except mine uses a .446 bullet. Sorry this took so long, I've been "laid up"
Mike

[m-4]

Mike,
Can you post your "Generic 11mm" article or direct us to where it is published as I would also like to read your article. I have a copy your article on the 9.3x72R printed for handy reference.
thanks
m-4

Vic,
I don't know if a groove dia of .440 will fit the Werder, which is usually closer to .454-6"(assuming a good measurement is possible).Did you read my article on loading Generic 11MMs? Your cartridge seems close to the one I called 11.15x51R, except mine uses a .446 bullet. Sorry this took so long, I've been "laid up"
Mike

[mike ford]

m-4,
The title of the article is "11mm Ammo and Rifles". It is in" Waidmannsheil" Issue 46,Summer 2011.
Mike

[m-4]

Thanks Mike