J. P. Sauer and consortium

[ellenbr]

You seem to have quite a stash of info at your fingertips. The window with which you are interested is more centered on implements of war rather than sporting but the technology developed in the war phases pretty much drives the sporting weapons wagon. Some may want to separate the two but they are most intertwined. I'm not positive as I don't have the text, but "Reichsarbeitsblatt: Sonderheft zum Reichsarbeitsblatt" from 1930 may have the info you desire with some association to Thüringischen Metallindustrie. Godspeed on your endeavors.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

My sincerest thanks again, Raimey, and I will look in that direction.

Best regards'

Steve

[Jim Cate]

Rolf Sauer referred to it as the 'German Weapons Industry.' (see page 234 of Vol.2 of my Sauer pistol books. In a letter dated March 4. 1934 to Herrn Reichs-Inspector Rudolf Schmeer in Munich, Rolf Sauer is contesting the Nazi Party's desire to standardize the small caliber pistol of a single pistol model. Here is the translation: By standardizing a single model (pistol) now for the P.O. (Party Organization) an unhealthy situation of a monopoly would be created. Which is exactly what our National Socialists Government and the Reichs Ministry of Trade is strongly fighting against - Thank God. We would like to beg you not to create within the German Weapons Industry aq second monopoly company, because we especially suffered enough due to the monopoly established by the firm Simson & Co. - Suhl/Heinrichs, (which was) established by the Versailles Treaty.

I would like to call your attention to the monopolistic company as that of Carl Walther, who had joined the Nazi Party in 1928 if I remember correctly. It must be noted that no other known member of the German Weapons Industry ever protested so strongly to the NSDAP as did J.P.Sauer up to this time. Sauer had enough business sense to realize that this action would stagnate new and better weapons that would be created by other firearms manufacturers as well as his own. The German Weapons Manufacturing Industry had had enough of Simson's monopoly......

By the way, the original information noted above came from the Sauer files located at the Suhl Archive. Regards, Jim Cate

[Steve Whitley]

Thanks, Jim. I have a copy of that letter among the material I obtained during two weeks of digging in the Suhl Depot to the Meiningen Staatsarchiv last fall. I also found a good deal of information in correspondence from J. P. Sauer concerning the struggles to form the consortium which produced the K98k (Vereinigte Suhl Zella-Mehliser Waffenfabriken) as well as the contract used to form it. What I am searching for, and found little concerning (either at the Depot or the Suhl city archives across town) is information about the two consortia which produced the trainers in that same time period. Sauer was definitely a member of the Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V. as well, and very evidently assembled the DSMs which bear the Waffenstadt Suhl marking on the receiver top. Information on this cooperative group is nowhere near as plentiful as that for the RWM contract work done by the other group.
Regards,
Steve

[Jim Cate]

Hi Steve! Yes, Sauer made the receivers for these .22 caliber trainers, but I cannot honestly say which particular company asembled them. I'm not into .22 trainers, but have owned a few through the years and have owned one that had the Waffenstadt Suhl marking on the receiver. It had the S&S stamp on the bottom of the receiver indicating Sauer had made the receiver. I can add nothing to Sauer's struggle to form the consortium to produce the K98k, but as you know Sauer started making this rifle for the Wehrmacht in 1934. So far I cannot determine if there was a consortium to produce the K98k rifle, but it would appear that did not happen. Other than Mauser I believe Sauer was the only other manufacturer that made this military rifle in 1934. By Sauer producing this rifle in 1934 the Party probably had to pay some attention to the Manufactures Association (German Weapons Manufacturing Industry) request to not produce just one particular side-arm (pistol) for the military and the Party in general. You may have found the request by Walther asking Sauer to produce complete slides for their PPK pistols, but Sauer never did. All in all a very interesting time in weapons production in Nazi Germany. Best regards, JIM

[Steve Whitley]

Hi Jim! I have long wondered if the Sauer mark on the underside of the Waffenstadt Suhl receivers indicated that they had merely made the receivers, or if they had not also served as assembler of those. The fit and finish of the rifles just screams "J.P. Sauer" to me. This is one reason I am hoping to find more detail on this "trainer" consortium. It likely means another trip back to Suhl, and I am certainly good with that. As for the K98k consortium, Bruce Karem and Michael Steves have done a HIGHLY COMMENDABLE job of documenting those details in their Volume 1. They may have missed this one folder I found of Sauer's correspondence and contract proposals on the formation of that consortium, or perhaps chose not to include any of it for the sake of space. I found the letters from Sauer extremely interesting and entertaining; much is revealed about issues with Haenel over previous barrel-making work which Sauer had passed to Haenel when work was scarce in Thüringen. I'm sure you would find this fascinating, and I will very gladly send you a copy of the file if you wish to message me a mailing address.
Best regards,
Steve

[Jim Cate]

Sauer had a long and good relationship with C.G.Haenel. Haenel was located up the street a little ways from the Sauer Villa on Bahnhofstrasse. I still don't know for sure whether there ever was a consortium for producing the K98k. I have disassembled several of the earliest Sauer K98s and never found any indication (stamps) on parts made by other companies. If you remember any of the issues regarding the barrels Haenel made (or have the copy from the Archiv), please pass those along to me at jjcate44@epbfi.com Much appreciated! Best regards, JIM

[Steve Whitley]

Will do so gladly, Jim. Likely will send in batches, as this is a sizeable file.
I should clarify that there was no issue with QUALITY on Haenel's work; there was a bit of a power struggle in forming the consortium, and Haenel felt they should be the lead firm, after Sauer had already been designated as such. Sauer had shared their work assignment with Haenel on previous jobs (at the cost of leaving their own barrel production partly idle) and had some problems with payments from Haenel. It is all in the letters I will send (including first drafts with slightly stronger language).
Best regards,
Steve

[Jim Cate]

Steve, I'm sorry to be a little late on getting back to you regarding the consortium to make K98ks. I have translated and read the documents you sent. I guess we have to read a little bit between the lines and come to the conclusion that Sauer did not want to slow down any of the production of commercial hunting/sporting guns (and didn't have to) to make the K98k rifles. After all Sauer had produced 2 variations of the '98 Model rifle during WWI and already knew what would have to be done to make the newer variation. Also, as you noted, there had been some problems with Haenel paying what this firm owed Sauer.
I believe this was a consideration in the final decision. All in all, I believe the idea of the consortium was discontinued and Sauer continued to make the K98k. However, it is well known and documented that different companies did make parts for this rifle that Sauer used in making them into complete weapons.

[Steve Whitley]

Agreed, Jim. The consortium was used as a launch pad of sorts to provide smaller firms some income in the early to mid 1930s. By 1935 all of these smaller makers had their feet in the door with RWM contracts, and doubtless Sauer drove on without their participation in the K98k project. They still made parts, and I believe assembled, some of the DSM production. Plus, they were well enough established that they served as the financier for some of this. I still hope to find more information on the small consortium in Suhl for the trainers, but this was a much smaller project and privately ordered through the SA. Fewer records remain of this in most archives.
I do love the history behind these firms during this era.
Steve

[Steve Whitley]

I've looked everywhere I can think of and the closest that I can come to helping is a short sentence in Dr. Fritze's book. It says that the group was founded in 1931 by the large and middle-sized gun factories. Presumably that would include Sauer.

Just obtained a copy of Dr. Fritze's book. Wonderful work and contains some great information in it pertaining to the consortium for the K98k and Merkel's parts production for that project, but sadly nothing concerning the group I am looking for information on.
Steve

I just noted that the book I have is "Gebrüder Merkel: Die Jagdwaffe in meinen Händen" and thus may be a second and separate book?

[Jim Cate]

Steve, if you have volume II of my Sauer pistol book you will find on page 429 a listing showing 1/Greifelt, 2/ Haenel, 3/ Merkel, 4/ Rempt, 5/ Schmidt & Habermann, 6/ Anschütz, 7/ Langenhan, 8/ Foss & Co., 9/ Walther, and 10/ Funk (the companies in Suhl and Z/M) involvement in producing parts for the K98k. If this is the consortium you and others might be referring to I believe these companies involvement came during the mid to later part of the war when weapons were needed so very much by the military. This list was created for the Soviets during October, 1945. Best regards, JIM

[Steve Whitley]

Thanks, Jim. There were different consortia for different purposes, some concurrently and some at different times. Adding to the confusion, members of one consortium sometimes changed (i.e., Erma supplied receivers for the K98k consortium from 1941 to 1944, replacing Walther in that role) with new names added and some members dropping out. The group you list, without Walther but WITH Sauer, formed a consortium to maintain the Frøhlicher Mann barracks for arms workers, for just one example. The K98k group was formed as "Vereinigte Suhl-Zella-Mehliser Waffenfabriken." The two smaller groups for which I am seeking more information are the "Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e. V." of Suhl and the "Waffengenossenschaft Thüringen e. G. m. b. H." of Zella-Mehlis, both operating AT LEAST during 1934-1936. One or both of these two groups may have continued after this time frame, but definitely formed during 1934 when the K98k consortium was formed. Definitely some of the firms who supplied a particular part or parts to the K98k production performed the same or similar role in supply for the DSMs (e.g. Haenel supplying stocks). There are fewer records for these consortia who made the trainers, evidently.
Best regards,
Steve

[Jim Cate]

Steve, I forgot to mention that in the listing of manufacturers of the parts for the K98k that only Sauer's name had Montage (assembly line production) mentioned with it. It was of our opinions (mine and Martin Krause, my co-author) Sauer was the only one of these companies/manufacturers that was utilizing all of these parts and assembling them into complete rifles. You have touched upon something I had not thought of: more than one consortium; and their time periods being different, as well as the purpose of a particular consortium. By the way, the Fröhlicher Mann (Happy Man) barracks is mentioned in my text. People from this barracks were also used to help produce the Model 38h Sauer pistols. The next time you are at the Suhl Archiv check the Haenel files and see if there might be some info in them regarding the DSMs. Regards, Jim

[germanguns1234]

The book I have is "Suhl, Heimat der Buechsenmacher". It is out of print but is invaluable even to a guy like me with poor German skills. Try to find one when you are in Germany.