J. P. Sauer and consortium

[Steve Whitley]

Does anyone have any information (or a source for such) on the Sauer company's relationship to/participation in the small Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V. which you are willing to share? I already have all I need from their position as lead firm in the Vereinigte Suhl-Zella-Mehliser Waffenfabriken.
Any help is most welcome, and thanks in advance!
Steve

[mike ford]

Steve,
Maybe Jim Cate knows, I think you can PM him.From the name,they don't sound like a firm, but rather an association of the local firms.
Mike

[Steve Whitley]

Precisely what it is, Mike. I have stacks of information concerning their participation in the larger consortium, but very little on the firm's contribution to the smaller group which produced DSMs during the same time period. Have sent Jim a PM. Thanks!
Steve

[germanguns1234]

I've looked everywhere I can think of and the closest that I can come to helping is a short sentence in Dr. Fritze's book. It says that the group was founded in 1931 by the large and middle-sized gun factories. Presumably that would include Sauer.

[ellenbr]

Not sure of the original German name, but The Suhl Gun Manufactures Association was founded on November 10th, 1911 with the following or agents under signature:

J.P. Sauer & Sohn
V. Chr. Schilling
E. Schmidt & Habermann
Christoph Funk
Gebrüder Rempt
Gebrüder Merkel
Albert Stobbe
Emil Eckoldt
H.A. Lindner
Franz Jaeger for F. Jaeger & Co.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Regarding the Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V., at some point Adolf Schade as the president or leader and Walter Rempt was the treasurer. In 1933 and possibly early 1934 they were vocal on the treatment of the Simson concern. Not sure which way they leaned but it would appear away from Simsom and toward the „arische"/Ayran .

"Antisemitismus nutzende Forderung des Verbandes der Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V., Heeresaufträge nicht länger an die in jüdischem Besitz befindliche Firma Simson Suhl, sondern an andere, d.h. an „arische" Waffenfabriken zu geben"

Looks like there was a similar organization in Z-M:

Mehliser Waffen und Metallwarenfabrikanten mit dem Verband Suhler Metallindustrieller und dem Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

May have changed their mantra on June 17th, 1933:

Der Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e. V. forderte am 17. Juni 1933 unter der Überschrift: „Ein Notschrei der deutschen Waffenindustrie" von Hitler, Heeresaufträge nicht nur an die „jüdische Firma" Simson,...

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

For those of you who may not recall, Adolf Schade was in upper management at Gebrüder Merkel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[germanguns1234]

From what I read, they might have organized to lobby the government as Simson had done well during the financial crisis because they had a monopoly on government contracts. The others wanted to also participate.

[ellenbr]

To each his own there Friar Jon and you can interpret it or water it down however you like. But the truth is in there somewhere and they seem to have partnered with the Z-M affiliate to garner said military contracts while during the same period fellas like Otto Reif and another or two are finding thrills in auto racing at Simson. Then for a time post WWII Reif appears as firearms merchant and subsequently quite a bit of stock of Simson components lands up with Edgar Strempel. Sure it is mostly about surviving and contracts but it is another straw on the camel's back defining the headwaters that lead to the demise or transformation of Simson.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

The following link may be Steve's or the source of inquiry, http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....fenstadt-Guhl& , but it has a circular or advert describing the finite window of Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V. for which you are searching.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

This is wonderful, and exactly what I am searching for. Would you be willing to share the source of this information?
I have found ample information on some of the consortia in Thüringen through the years (and there were SEVERAL, which can be confusing). I also have acres of information on the Simson takeover and the events leading up to it. Rolf Sauer and Fritz Walther were both major voices in complaints against the Simson monopoly (and resultant government subsidies) resulting from the Treaty of Versailles, and had plenty of support from the other gunmakers in both Suhl and Zella-Mehlis. That is covered very well in the recent book by Ulrika Schulz.
Specifically, I am looking for more details of both the Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V. and the Waffengenossenschaft Thüringen e.G.m.b.H. and their respective members. The former was in Suhl and the latter in Zella-Mehlis, of course. ANY information which you could steer me to would be very helpful and GREATLY appreciated. Just the information of Adolf Schade being the leader and Rempt serving as treasurer is new and very WELCOME news. Is there a source for this which I can access and use for documentation?
Sincerest thanks!
Steve Whitley

[Steve Whitley]

Yes, this link is to information which I had posted on that site. Steve

The following link may be Steve's or the source of inquiry, http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread....fenstadt-Guhl& , but it has a circular or advert describing the finite window of Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V. for which you are searching.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

There are bits and pieces scattered from the 1920s forward till current times. I'm pretty sure Schade & Rempt's positions were given in "Gebrüder Merkel: die Geschichte einer Suhler Waffenfabrik" 1999 by Hans-Jürgen Fritze, so he may have a handle on it. I've seen the Verband Suhler Gewehrfabrikanten e.V. referred to as far back as 1915 so I assume, assume mind you that the 1911 formation listed earlier was the beginning but by the 1930s Lindner was out and I'm sure there were other omissions or additions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[Steve Whitley]

Thanks ever so much! I have only spoken with Dr. Fritze through conference call with Peter Arfmann, but will get a copy of that book. The consortia changed and evolved considerably through the years and members came and went. My research is focused on the 1930s era, so I will have to see if this reference pertains to that particular incarnation of the group or not. The consortium usage is difficult to track in this era---not just because of scarcity of remaining records, but due to the complexity of participation by various members. An example is the well-known and well-documented consortium activity to produce the K98k at this time by the larger consortium of Vereinigte Suhl-Zella-Mehliser Waffenfabriken; there was a separate consortium formed for housing laborers for these arms makers under a SIMILAR name, which consisted of nine of the ten members of the first group but included Funk of Suhl rather than Walther of Zella-Mehlis. The research can be confusing, and I am trying to be meticulous about information prior to printing (which always occurs too soon!).

Thanks yet again!

Steve Whitley