first post, general questions

[toadboy65]

Hello everyone- I am an old hand on the military gun boards, but new here. I have been given two historic sporting rifles for conservation and repair. The history of the rifles is that they were commissioned in 1935 by Hans F. K. Gunter, and used primarily by the German anthropologist Bruno Beger during the 38-39 German expedition to Tibet. There are two guns- a 7x57 mauser actioned stalking rifle, and a Drilling 16x16 over 7.8x72. I will have a million questions for the experts, but will start with two probably easy ones.
1. How is the sling with the wooden toggle supposed to work? am I missing something?

2. Regretfully I have to refinish the stock on the drilling. It appears to be well figured walnut. Can someone tell me exactly what process and materials would have been used to finish a high-end sporting rifle in 1935? I cannot use modern materials for this job.

Thanks and greetings- toad

[mike ford]

toad,
If my assumption that you are talking about a "quick shortening" sling is correct, this sling is used as a carrying strap, and not a shooting sling. It is installed by holding the end with the toggle/loop in one hand,run the other end through the forward sling swivel loop, then back through the leather loop on the end you are holding. Then run it through the rear swivel loop and install the brass( or steel) stud. If you are confused, it's because my description is confusing. I reccomend you remove the old stock finish with a solvent, rather than sanding,leaving as much as possible in the pores.Then rub in thin coats of oil based finish(Tru oil, Linspeed, etc)until it is covered/protected from weather. If the old finish left the pores filled after cleaning, I would rub in a coat of Boiled linseed oil rather than "oil finish". The idea is to do the work, so that it doesn't look "new". Be sure to clean out any "gunk" from the checkering with an old toothbrush, as you go(before it dries). This is only one mans opinion, there will be others.
Mike

[toadboy65]

I usually work on high-value military rifles, so I subscribe to the religion of preserving old finish. Sanding is like sunlight to a vampire. In this case, it looked as though someone had held the gun by the barrel and swung it like a bat. Hitting something HARD. The wood housing the trigger and hammer mechanism was shattered, and several splits developed running through the stock to the butt of the gun, which was also destroyed. Some internal parts of the lock mechanism were bent, and most of the bolts broken or damaged. I have a reputation for fixing the unfixable, so I got the job. I have the stock back into its original shape, although a big dent remains, right in the middle of the checkered grip. There is a lot of force trying to separate the front of the stock. It could not just be glued together. I had to internally install some steel clamps to keep it from continually splitting apart. I have had to replace some of the wood, but matched the grain and color well enough that there is no longer any visible evidence of the splits and missing wood. So I had to sand the stock. It was terribly banged up. I left it with roughly the same minor dings and scratches to match the rifle that was the other part of the set. But I can promise you that no one can look at the stock and tell it has been sanded. FYI I started with 600 grit only on the worst areas, and ended up with 2000 grit overall. The checkering was cleaned with a very soft bristle bronze brush made for such jobs. So I am left with a very pretty stock with a few dings, but lacking any finish. I could use an oil finish followed by a french wax polish, and it would look like the other rifle. But I want to duplicate exactly the original finish, per the customer's instructions. I pretty much expect that I will have to make the finish from some old formula, but I have a pretty good stash of archaic chemicals and substances.
As for the sling, I think I have it figured out. I had assumed the toggle part would somehow supply enough friction to shorten the sling to the user's comfort. I see now that the toggle only serves to shorten the sling when you want it out of the way. I have a decent supply of the wartime double buttons to fix the strap to the butt end. I found one that was made with steel on the round end and stainless on the flat side. I polished it and blued the steel part. I made the wooden toggle from bokote instead of oak, which I just could not resist because the wood is so pretty. Has anyone run across the steel buttons that have been engraved?
Thanks for the info- toad

[mike ford]

toadboy65,
Wow, I feel pretty silly giving you advice after what you have done. I'm sorry to say that the stock finish on German guns was my least favorite thing about them(sorry to my German Friends).If I had a stock done while there I took the completed stock and finished it myself before giving it back for checkering. The exception was the Drilling I wrote about in the "Der Waffenschmied"on drillings( "A Drilling Back From The Grave"). On that stock, the stockmaker weighted the stock down in a vat of oil ( linseed, maybe boiled linseed oil) with dye(stain) added, until it had soaked up all the oil it would take. It was taken out, drained, dried, and rubbed out. I don't know whether it was checkered before or after the oil treatment. Maybe another member can describe another old method.
Mike

[toadboy65]

It was my first post in this forum, and I was asking for advice. I appreciate your response. I have had relatively little experience working on sporting rifles, and I want to do this job right. I am a partner in a very small company performing museum conservation of textiles and metals, and have developed a niche specialty in pre-1945 Axis militaria. I am really enjoying conserving and repairing these two fine historic rifles, and have been given the budget of "whatever it costs to do it right", which is my favorite kind of job. My first big surprise was discovering that I was going to have to manufacture all of the broken and bent bolts, then polish and engrave both ends. The first bolt took me three days. But my next big challenge and question for the experts is how do I restore color bone-ash case hardening finish? I can see that it was once vibrantly colored, but is very faded now. Is there a way to fix it without starting from scratch? If I am posting in the wrong part of the forum, please let me know. Thanks-
toad

[sharps4590]

toadboy, first off welcome to the forum! I can't tell you a thing that will help, but I will be watching this thread....I have so much to learn!!

[Axel E]

Faded or worn case hardening colors (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_hardening )
cannot be "restored" in any way. These colors are not material deposited on the surface, but result from light interference like the colors of butterflies (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfe...ve_propagation)
These colors fade in time not only from wear, but from exposure to sunlight too.
Faking such colors has been tried again and again, using bluing and browning liquids painted on + heat applied by a small blowtorch, but the results are always plainly distinguishable from real casehardening.

[toadboy65]

Thanks Axel- I was referred by a forum member to the Schilling Special coatings firm in Zella-Mehlis, and have asked them their advice about case hardening color restoration. I was not aware that the color resulted from the physical wave propagation. It seems like every step I take leads to more questions. Thanks- toad

[mike ford]

toad,
Once again, I feel a little silly offering advice, considering your experiences. A few things I picked up looking over the shoulder of Fred and Walter in Walter Grass's shop when I was stationed in Germany are heheinafter described. Without knowing the type bolt (screw?)reguiring three days, I would guess it would have been a "through bolt"( you said engraved on both ends),with the slot "clocked". Walter would made such a screw with a "blank" having the correct thread, a very thick head, and excess length. At first, a temp. slot was sawed (mini saw) in the head and the screw turned in and pulled up tight.Then the perm. slot location would be marked to "clock"it, and the required thickness of the head as well as length of the screw would be marked. The screw would be shortened to approx.length, and the new slot sawed(or filed for a narrow slot) past the temp.slot and the head filed to approx. thickness. The screw would then be reinstalled and final adjustments made to length and head thickness, and the ends polished and engraved. If building an entire gun, he would blue the screw with the rest of the gun; but if a single screw, he would likely heat blue it with his torch and a dish of oil. If a screw with one exposed end was required, unnecessary steps would be eliminated. When the screws are "clocked", it is necessary that they be installed in the location for which they were made.This is usually done by marking them in some manner.One common system would be to file a line on the unseen end of the screws on one side of the gun, the ones on the other side would have no mark. In the few cases where a third is required(of the same type and size), it would be marked with a "X".This includes the small locking screws, but there are enough of them that one may have to be checked for alignment on more than one screw.This is not too hard, because they would only have to be checked on one side of the gun.When I was there color case hardening was not being done, so I can't offer anything.For the "coin" or "French Grey" finish some smiths use an acid to make the grey. Walter refused to do this to prevent residual acid from leaking and causing rust. Rather, he would blue the reciever and remove the blue from the surface leaving it in the depths of the engraving thereby accenting it.He started the removal of the bluing with worn 320 grit cloth backed by a file,and completed it it with steel wool dipped in oil and an abrasive powder. It would be done by eye to even it all out and make it look nice. I see "restorations" done with screws, levers, triggerguards, and all having been color case hardened. This was seldom, if ever, done on original guns.A study of old cataloges should be done to determine which parts should be color case, which should be "coin" or blued, or "Straw"(also a heat process), etc.
One of our members, Doug Turnbull, is a recognized expert in restorations, including color case hardening using the original manufacturers procedures. It isn't likely that he would be willing to give up his "hard won" trade secrets, but he might do some parts(for a fee) for you. I have no association with him, so I have no idea if he would really do it. To me it is a big deal to do the work(if possible)so that it looks age appropriate( correct wear patterns, etc),or if it has to be made "new", do it the same as original.It is very difficult to find out exactly what they did.This is why people like Turnbull (and likely you) are very protective of their secrets. I wish I could have been more helpful.
Mike

[toadboy65]

I did not know the term was clocked, but I kind of intuited a system that was not a simple as the one you describe. My biggest problem was the bolts with an inside bevel. The angle of the countersink on the receiver was slightly different from anything I could locate. So machined a block of tungsten with a hole matching the bolt diameter, and a countersink cut to match the ones on the receiver I heated up the steel rod, and hammered it into the block. That left me with a blank with the correct shaped head. Then I could set the length and time the threads so that it was correctly clocked, then cut the slot and did the finish work. As far as the color case hardening goes, I was given introductions to someone who can do the work in Germany. My general policy is to never let anyone do paid work for me unless I can watch and ask questions. The problem with having secret processes is that there is at very least a responsibility to pass the secrets on to someone who cares. otherwise yet another traditional skilled art just goes away when the craftsman retires or passes away. I am as guilty of this as anyone. I am teaching my son, but he is planning on going to medical school. I wish we still had craft guilds, and that someone could go into such a field with the expectation that a career in that craft could pay well enough to support a family. At least Japan is trying to subsidize the masters of traditional crafts so that the knowledge can endure. Sorry about the rant. As for the color case hardening, this particular gun has remnants of the original patterns, and those patterns can be seen in some historic photographs. If I change the visible pattern, it could well impact the provenance of the rifle. So I will be discussing this with the experts. in my shop we duplicate pretty much all of the military firearm finishes from the 16th century on, including hot blue, rust brown, plum, straw, and several types of phosphates. We even use mercury gilding in a very controlled manner. hopefully I will not have to send the metal away to be colored. Hopefully the experts will give me good advice on that. If anyone has an old book on the process, I would love to see it. Thanks again for the helpful responses and advice. toad

[Steve Whitley]

toad,
Admire and appreciate your efforts, and I hope you will post progress reports as the project progresses.
Steve

[mike ford]

Toad,
I think the term "clocked" is really British rather than German, and is just a common use term, rather than anything "official". Now I can see how it would take 3 days to make a screw,by the method you used, I can't imagine clocking one by the threads. A German gunsmith would use the simplest method that gave a satisfactory results. In the really old days, they would make their own tools to cut countersinks, threads, etc. After the industrial revolution, they went more and more to standardized tooling, however. If you call up the Recknagle or Trieble cataloges and check their offerings for tools,screws, etc.; you can figure out what the "Standard" angles and diameters, as well as thread pitches are. If you still can't find the included angle of a countersink, you could always make a cerrosafe sample and measure it directly.It would be pretty simple, then, to cut the underside of the screwhead to fit. Some had tapered shanks to be burned into the stock, this is why it sometimes it seems there is a mismatch between the shank diameter at the head and the major thread diameter(this prevents a loose fit of the stock to receiver). There are a good many different methods of color case hardening avaliable(even using fresh horse manure)in old publications-the trick is matching what was originally used. You can't match any particular pattern, only a general pattern/color scheme. By virture of the quenching method, the original makers couldn't duplicate a particular pattern. The problem with trying to learn the hardwon secrets of people that make their living with them is that many of them have had "students" go into competition with them and hurt their business. Anyone that cultivates enough of a friendship with someone that "tricks of the trade" are learned, owes it to his friend not to use them in a way that hurts his business. I'm so old now that those I learned from are either retired or have passed on, so I can't hurt their business.
Mike

[toadboy65]

I always used the term "timing the threads", particularly when fitting a barrel that had to end up in a particular orientation when tight. I would love to know the German term. I appreciate the reference to the catalogs. I assumed that there was somewhere to find these bolts, but when I drove into Asheville to talk to the guy who has been selling bolts for 40 years, he measured and looked around and made some calls, and told me he had no way of ordering the bolts. At least I have an ancient and impressive collection of taps and dies. The case hardening has me stumped. I have never done the process before, much less tried to duplicate an existing pattern. I bet there is a way to do it. Once I learn how to properly do the process, I can start fiddling with the aspects that make the pattern random. I will post my results, unless I just fail completely.
t

[sharps4590]

This is great.....like sitting in on a lecture!!!!

[mike ford]

Toad,
I agree that's the way to fit a barrel that already has sights mounted, but the coarser thread pitch and bumping to a shoulder that can be relieved helps an awful lot. An industrial bolt/screw supplier will have very very few products useful to the gun trade( maybe scope mounting screws, stock bolts, etc). Sometimes a really old die or tap is worth it's weight in gold, you sometimes find an old reciever with a 1/4"-28 screw forced in and a #14-24 old die has pulled my "fat" out of the fire more than once. I think there have been a couple old threads on the DoubleGun BBS (1 or two years old) about case hardening and "blocking to lessen warping. Ignore the ones about coloring with a torch, except for screws and pins, this is worthless. If you round up some old single shot actions and experiment with them, you should have fun at least( more modern "cast"actions won't color using old methods).The pattern will be random if you run compressed air through the quench to create bubbles. We would like to see photos of your results.
Mike