Austrian Combination

[kcordell]

Hi,

A family member recently acquired this Austrian combination gun. I was only able to look at it for a couple of minutes and didn't have a decent camera with me. Its in really great condition but I could not tell what the caliber was for the rifle. All that I could read was 7.3. Here are a few pictures. Any help would be appreciated. Also, on the rib was the following...I think this is correct... JGNAZ OGRIS Scharding.

[kcordell]

[mike ford]

kcordell,
What you have asked is next to impossible to determine. We can give a much better answer, if you can borrow the rifle and make a chambercast and "slug" the bore(or make the chambercast long enough to include a good section of the barrel). An out and out guess,based on just the appearent age/intended use, diameter of the barrel at the chamber, would be 7x57R. If someone else has another guess, I wouldn't argue.
Mike

[Axel E]

As the gun is quite "modern", proofed 1935, and is marked with a groove diameter of 7.3 mm, it is most likely either a 7x57R or a 7x65R. The Austrians marked the groove diameter, the Germans the land diameter. All the "7 mm" cartridges are named for their Bore/land diameter, a .284" bullet is in fact 7.21 mm.
Böhler Blitz Stahl advertises the origin and quality of the barrel steel.
Nothing is known here about an Ignaz Ogris in Schärding (with Umlaut ä), but there is an old gunmaker family Ogris in Ferlach. Schärding on Inn is a small town on the German border south of Passau. The one gunshop there now is:
Rameder Franz, Innbruckstr. 9, 4780 Schärding, Austria, tel. , 07712/2595;
email: waffen-rameder@aon.at
You may try to contact them. Maybe they know something about Ignaz Ogris?

[kcordell]

Mike and Axel, excellent thoughts and data. I appreciate your feedback. Will get to see it again in a week or so.

[kcordell]

Well its been some time since I visited this post but it took me that long to get the chamber cast done. Based on measurements, it is 7x72r with as Axel stated above a .284" bullet. Hmmm it looks like the only option is to purchase the brass from the Australian company? I am not a great re-loader...have much to learn.

[mike ford]

Kevin,
You can make cases from 9.3x72R, if you have some on hand. You may have to size them in a couple steps, but once you get them small enough to chamber and fireform and trim them, they can be loaded with most any 7mm dies(neck size and seat bullet) by screwing the die into the press above the ram the correct amount.As I recall the bullet weight was about 139gr.
Mike

[Leatherman]

I am coming back to this 2014 post by kcordell because I have just purchased an exact copy of the cape gun he shows above, same maker and same caliber, 7x72r. Someone has added talley scope bases to the rib along it's many owners. The gun came with reloading dies but no load data. So I reached out to Kevin to see if he ever got his rifle shooting or not. Meanwhile can anyone help me out with any information so I can get started . What type of bullet and weight would they have used in the 7x72r black powder era and later in smokeless? I am thinking of useing a jacketed bullet to allow a little more velocity and hopefully accuracy. Any idea of what velocities they got with the bullets they used? There are plenty of 7 mm bullets to chose from which I am hopeing to try to get one to print close to the Brenneke 16 gauge slug. Thanks in advance.

[fuhrmann]

Leatherman

the 7x72R never was a blackpowder cartridge.
So you can use regular 7 mm jacketed bullets - I just would stay away from modern copper solids.
Pressure was below 7x57R level, so be careful with the powder charge.
Per CIP tables:
7x72R 2800 bar
7x57R 3400 bar
7x65R 3800 bar
7x57 3900 bar
7x64 4150 bar

More info and loading data in the RWS reloading handbook - should be online here - hope this works

https://rws-munition.de/rws-jagd-ber...ladedaten.html

[algmule]

Hello

Here´s the only Ogris out of Schärding that I was able to find. Not very helpful but at least it´s an Ogris from Schärding.
1936-3.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

the 7x72R never was a blackpowder cartridge.
So you can use regular 7 mm jacketed bullets - I just would stay away from modern copper solids.
Pressure was below 7x57R level, so be careful with the powder charge.

Despite it's antiquated appearance, the 7x72R is quite "recent" in fact. It was developed and first offered by Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, in 1927. Quite late for such a cartridge, it was meant as a roebuck cartridge for use in very light drillings and break-open single shots. It was always factory loaded with smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. I have a Collath cape gun, the rifle barrel rebored, rerifled, rechambered and reproofed for this cartridge in 1937 from the then already obsolete 6.5x70R. 1934 DWM ballistics were (24" barrel):
139 gr rn sp at 2503 fps
154 gr TIG at 2280 fps
108 gr fn sp at 2648 fps
Top pressure was 2700 bar, copper crusher.
So far, my own load is case reformed from S&B 9.3x72R, 139 gr S&B rn jacketed, 35 gr VV N140.

[Leatherman]

Thanks guys. Axel, I knew you had the Collath in the 7X72 from another post I read. I know the German guns were mainly chambered in what you say is Roe Deer cartridges but with a proper modern bullet of 140 to 200 grain weights designed to open up at 2500 fps but also retain its weight, these cartridges in these velocities work well on our White tail deer up to 200 pounds. I can attest to that with the 9.3X 72 and my 8X58R Sauer having performed very well using a thin soft jacket bonded bullet. Just dont stretch the distance of the shot farther than 100 yards. I have some N-140 I can try. My favorite powder is 3031 which I am using 39 grains in my 9.3X72 with 200 grain bullets. Not exactly a hot load but an accurate one. I want to er on the lighter side on these old guns. Perhaps I can start at 15% less of the 3031 at 33 grains of 3031 with a 139 grain bullet??

[fuhrmann]

Despite it's antiquated appearance, the 7x72R is quite "recent" in fact. It was developed and first offered by Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, in 1927. Quite late for such a cartridge, it was meant as a roebuck cartridge for use in very light drillings and break-open single shots.

Axel,
I know an older single-shot rifle of Austrian origin in 7x72R that definitely has an insert barrel.
Such insert barrels for old Express rifles might be one more purpose for this cartridge.

[algmule]

Hello

Leatherman,
for what it´s worth - in 1941 there was an "Ignaz Ogris, Oberwerkmeister der Steyr-Werke-Waffenabteilung . . ". If this is the right Ignaz Ogris I can´t tell but I can´t find any other Ignaz Ogris. If he was related to all the other gun-Ogris'es (Friedrich, Josef, Marcus, Franz, Bartholomäus) I don´t
know.

EDIT: apparently there was a Viktor Ogris along with the other gun-Ogris'es as well. Got shot in the left arm in 1924!

Kind regards
Peter

[Leatherman]

Thanks Peter. I will keep that information for future reference.