Strange Barrel stampings on pre-war merkel combination

[Dschenck]

I just bought a Merkel 311 (301) two barrel set through an auction. The combination's rifle barrel is said to be .318 diameter and the barrel was stamped 16/8x57. That's plain enough. But, apparently the rifle marking, 8x57, has been stamped through and replaced with 8.88. As I know of no such caliber (and it's not being misread as 8x60 or 68, as they checked closely), I'm left to think that the 88 was itnended to refer to the original bore diameter. Thoughts?

[Axel E]

Photos of the markings would be really helpful! It should rather be the other way around: 8mm M88 is a pre-WW1 designation for the 8x57I.

[mike ford]

Dschenck,
As Axel stated, photos would be necessary to solve the mystery. In addition to the markings you mentioned, please insure there are photos of the proof marks on the botton of the rifle barrel, it self. If it has a 7.8 over 57 and some numbers representing a date, or if there is a 156.14 (bore dia.in ga.measurement), be sure to include them.If there is a" repair"proof (crown over R), include it as this could indicate rechambering(e.g. from 8x57R/360 to 8X57IR, sometimes shown as 8mm M88R; the R not usually shown in proof marks, because rimmed cartridge would be self evident from rim recess).Before the late 1930s caliber marks as you described( ie 8x57 instead of 7.8)would only be shown as a convience, so a date would help.
Mike

[Dschenck]

I'll take and upload the pictures when the gun arrives. My guess is that this wasn't a re-chambering or repair but an attempt post WWII to mark the bore with the 1888 bore designation as the 323 was coming into more common usage in sporting arms. I'll be curious to see what people think.

[mike ford]

Post WWII, the M88 designation wasn't in common use, more likely it would have been 8x57IR if they wanted to differenate between it and 8x57IRS. In the late 1930s(1939 proof law), they were required to mark them with a designation as normally used( ie not 7.8/57).
Mike

[Dschenck]

Frustratingly, I still await the arrival of the gun. I'm crudely guesstimating the date of manufacture as late 19-teens or 1920 at the latest given the serial number (around 11,000) and apparent lack of a month/year stamping. I don't know if Merkel was making guns during World War 1, but this would be a candidate if they were. I'll take and upload the pictures when it arrives.

[Dschenck]

Ok, so I now have the gun and am happy to report that it looks great. I took some pictures and am trying to post the best one, which is still a bit hard to make out. On the side of the under (rifle) barrel, right below the serial number and right above the StMg stamping is an added "16 . 8x88." The same stamping is included on the steel bottom plate inside the fore-end of the combination barrels -- 16. 8x88. There is no crown R stamp anywhere. The original stamping -- or what I believe to be the original 7.8 x ___ is stamped horizontally on the very bottom of the rifle barrel, with a strong --through what appears to be 57 under it. A 8x57jr round drops in fine. Looking inside the rifle barrel I do not see any lengthing of the chamber. I can and will cerrosafe this and slug the bore to confirm the .318 diameter, but I'm likely to send it off someplace to have it checked independently in any event. Anyway, thoughts are appreciated as to the explanation for this. My own theory is, as stated earlier, that the "88" stamping was added shortly after WWI to indicate the bore diameter in keeping with the original 1888 commission rifle 318 diameter and to avoid any issue arising under the Treaty of Versaille.

[mike ford]

Dschenck,
I couldn't make out the numbers in the photo, except the 8.88. I lean toward Axel's initial impression that it is an early gun and the original marking was 8.88 and the 8,57 added later(to clear misunderstanding of caliber). To support this is the lack of a date( which Suhl didn't start using umtil after WW1).
Mike

[Dschenck]

But the "57" is what's stricken out. So that wasn't what got added, unless someone wanted to undo the addition. I have a number of early Merkels and haven't seen any marked other than, e.g, 7,7 or 7,8 x 57.

[mike ford]

Dschenck,
Now I understand. This just illustrates the need for clear photographs of all the markings, absent a "hands on" inspection.
Mike

[mike ford]

Dschenck,
Now I understand. This just illustrates the need for clear photographs of all the markings, absent a "hands on" inspection. The markings relating to proof, includind caliber designation, were placed by the proofhouse( not Merkel), so were not subject to Merkel's protocol.
Mike