New Member-Looking for Ammo

[Leatherman]

My Collath's barrels have no bullet weight or even bore size stamped on them, just the proof date. So I am just looking for a starting point for the powders I mentioned. Then I can start the regulating process as Mike describes . I had read somewhere that the 9.3x80 and 82mm cartridges were no hotter velocity wise than the original 72mm. Got to wonder then why did they bother to offer the longer versions . We of course know that some manufacturers such as Collath had their own propriatory cartridges which this is one I am loading for. But they also offered the 9.3x72 in their catalog of Drillings and rifles. For reference on reloading for these old cartridges, another powder I will be trying, I have been told by a few reloaders of old black powder cartridge rifles that trail boss powder is a very good and easiy powder to use. They say to load from 80 to 100% case to bottom of bullet capacity. Recoil and report is very mild and velocities and accuracy are still excellent for hunting. Trouble is it is hard to find as it is made in bulk once a year and when that is scarfed up by the cowboy shooters you wait until next years production run. I am anxious to try it in my german rifles as less recoil and report would be nice and high preasures are not a worry.

[sharps4590]

So much for my idea, huh... I don't believe I'd try Trail Boss in a double rifle. Don't take that wrong, I believe it's a good powder and I use it in a couple cartridges one of which is very accurate and the other it's more than adequate. It's problem is that in a double rifle no one I know has been able to get it to generate enough velocity for the barrels to regulate. Sherman Bell of DGJ tried it in several doubles, I tried it in one and others have also. To my knowledge it's never regulated.

Running the Trail Boss loads I do use across my chronograph has given considerably slower velocities than other smokeless powders that were loaded to mid-range charges and often not equal to full black powder charges. Sometimes as much as 400 fps. With those cartridges when you're working with only about 1500 fps to start with that's significant. That isn't a problem with a single barrel provided one can adjust the sights but it will be no end of headaches in a double.

[mike ford]

That has been pretty much my experience with Trail Boss too. I might find a rifle it works best in, but haven't yet, and have tried.Most of the people that are happy with Trail boss shoot paper, and are not quite as interested in matching the original ballistics.
Mike

[Diz]

Leatherman,

I would have to guess that the length was a proprietary thing with Collath but I cannot state that with any authority. The British made most of their big double rifle cartridges larger not so much to increase power but to reduce pressure with equal power levels.

Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

Mike, your are correct that the guys I have been talking to do shoot paper or steel targets. I will be attending a SxS sporting clays event June 6th at Friendsville PA. A group of SxS shooters have agreed to organize a SxS rifle and Drilling competition shoot this year. Mostly steel targets and possibly a charging buffalo too. The Drilling and Cape gun would be a combination steel target and clay birds. We have been pushing to have this type of competition so us collectors of combination guns will have an event to use them on occasion. If it goes over well I can see this becoming an event at other SxS sporting clay events and we have been requesting this same thing at other locations. We finally got a black powder SxS muzzleloader and Black Powder SxS cartridge shoot started at the National Muzzleloader Rifle ?Association June and September national shoots at Friendship Indiana. It has so far been very successful. Mostly all British made guns being used but I plan to be there this year representing the fine German double rifles made in that era too. If anyone is wanting more information about these shoots, let me know. Meanwhile I have emailed the ballistic guru at Accurate powder to see if they can get me a starting load useing their 5744 powder in my 9.3x80. I will start with my 9.3x72 loads useing 3031 with a filler meanwhile and let you know how I make out.

[Diz]

Leatherman,

i am interested in shooting the combination match at Friendsville. Do you have any info? Also are you a member of a SxS club. I belong to Grouse Hall SxS.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Leatherman,Diz,
I believe the guys over at Double Gun, or Nitro Express do this also, with the addition of a class for Rook rifles.They dress in period clothing as well. This is not a recommendation, but I think you will wind up somewhere between 26 and 34 gr 5744 for the 9.3x80R w/o filler( It may not "regulate" and you might have to go back to "old school" loads for the shoots).
Mike

[Axel E]

The pre-1925 Teschner & Co , Wilh.Collath Söhne, catalog, once reprinted by the GGCA, shows this load for the 9.3x80R Collath: 193gr Tesco copper jacket bullet (same as 9.3x72R) in front of 2.8 g = 43 gr Rottweil R5 (about midway between 3031 and 4064 in burning rate) for an instrumental velocity at 25 meters of 2080 fps. For comparision: the same catalog lists the 9.3x72R with the same bullet and 2.5g = 38.5 gr R5 for V25 of 1808 fps. So, over here, I would load the 9.3x80R with theTesco type Sellier&Bellot 193 gr copper jacket bullet or a soft .358" 200 gr one, VV N140 powder, the 9.3x72R 46gr load as a start and work up to about 50 gr.

[Leatherman]

The shoot is June 5th thru the 6th. You can see their advertisement on their website www.hhhsc.net . Their physical address is 1061 Flynn Rd. Friendsville , PA 18818. flynn road is a dirt lane that is off Irish Hill Road. There will be small signs directing you to the Flynn road address. It is way up in the mountain farm land, beautiful location and a nice sporting clays course thru the woods. This will just be an informal shoot with the double rifles and combo guns with steel targets and some clay birds mixed in. I heard a guy might set up a charging buffalo target too. We have to figure out how to run this as a competition match. we are hopeful it will take off as it has at Friendship Indiana and more double and combo enthusiasts will bring their guns out of the safes and shoot them . Maybe even buy some guns from the dealers there too. I don't know what time the double rifle match will start. We have been shooting after the sporting clay events were over off to the side of the vendor tents, but I have been told that a new range for this has been set uo elsewhere. I would say show up on Saturday and figure to stay the day, might as well bring a shotgun along and shoot some sporting clays. Lots of vendors and guns there to look at too. I will be set up as a vendor selling my leather goods. come by and say hi.

[Leatherman]

Thanks Axel. Our Midway USA online store sells Vihavuori N140 powder. Reviews are good on it. One person remarked it can be sensitive to temperature but that is for target shooting. I just want to come up with something that will replicate the old velocities of the rifles time period within the proper pressures and get it to hopefully regulate for informal competition three times a year and then to hunt with it too. I will try it in my 9.3x72's as well. 46 - 50 grains sounds like it might fill the case better than 3031 or 5744 too.

[Diz]

Axel,

I ran that through my Quick Load and it shows 41.5 grains of Vihtavouri N-140 powder with a S&B 193 at 2058 fps and 20,780 psi. The loading density is 75%. Propellant Burnt is 87.17% for a Ballistic Efficiency of 24.6%. This is the CALCULATED results out of a 26" barrel. Of course your results may vary but it looks pretty good to me. I may try this in my own drilling.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

Given the predicted velocity that load seems as if it should regulate also. But if your luck is anything like mine that would be entirely too easy...

[Diz]

Sharps & Axel,

Yes it does seem to easy but I picked the load to make that speed figuring it was very close to factory. Since those numbers really got my interest and I have some Vihtavuori N-135 on hand I thought I would run that powder as well. With the same bullet and load weight but using N-135 it develops (PREDICTED) 2,082 fps at 20,464 psi. Or slightly more velocity at slightly lower pressure. Plus the load density is 81.1%, the powder burned is 89.91% and the ballistic efficiency is 26.1%. Whats not to like with that. The name may be hard to spell but it looks good on paper. Axel, thanks for bringing it up.

Diz

[Axel E]

Some loads pressure tested and recommended by the DEVA for the 9.3x72R, maximum CIP pressure 2000 bar:
. All loads without any filler.
Old RWS 193 gr Tesco type copper jacket (I substitute them with S&BB)
37 gr IMR 3031, 1970 fps, 1722 bar
46 gr VV N140, 1970 fps, 1667 bar
29.5 gr SR 4759, 1980 fps, 2000 bar
53 gr VV N540, 2220 fps, 2000 bar
232 gr Norma Vulkan .366", 52.5 gr VV N550, 1945 fps, 1600 bar

[Diz]

Axel,

Just for fun I ran that 46 grain VV load through the computer. It gives a compressed load density of 109%. Max pressure over 43,000 and 2,500+ fps. For the combination of values used it puts it in the red zone. But again this is a computer model and not actual tested data. It is very interesting by way of comparison but needs to be understood for what it is. There are so many variables that can be plugged into the program that all make a difference in the final numbers. The "hardness" of the bullet relates to the shot start value is just one but has a decided effect on pressure. The fact that the computer says this is a compressed load is also interesting because of the variations in actual case volumes. As a very good friend of mine once said "the more I know, the less I know". He was right.

Thanks, Diz