New Member-Looking for Ammo

[sharps4590]

I too hope they work for you. It would be a pity to alter the rifle. I'm a firm adherent to Ross Seyfried's statement, "alter the ammo, not the rifle".

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
Ditto to Sharps4590 statements. Collath's comment about re-bodying the cases,would be pretty close to my suggestion above about "bushing" the 9.3x82 Bertram brass. I would think a 30-30 expanded straight, and with the head removed would be the easiest to do(also 30-30 cases are everywhere).The traditional way to join the bush and the case is to solder them, but I believe a modern highstrength adhesive would work, and be much easier. There would be little to no stress on the joint. Everything considered, if this were my rifle,I would do everything I could to make fireformed Bertram cases work.
Mike

[collath]

Leatherman,

I think I may know what those cases you have that are marked 405 are. They may be Bertram .405 basic or 405 HDS basic cases in which case (so to speak) they would start out at straight and 82.5mm long. They would require the heads to be swaged a bit and the rims turned but that could be done pretty easily and they would be long enough. This has been puzzling me for awhile so I kept digging. By the way Huntington Die Specialty has this brass in stock.

Good luck, collath

[mike ford]

Nice catch, Collath
Mike

[Leatherman]

Leatherman,

I think I may know what those cases you have that are marked 405 are. They may be Bertram .405 basic or 405 HDS basic cases in which case (so to speak) they would start out at straight and 82.5mm long. They would require the heads to be swaged a bit and the rims turned but that could be done pretty easily and they would be long enough. This has been puzzling me for awhile so I kept digging. By the way Huntington Die Specialty has this brass in stock.

Good luck, collath

That has to be what he used. I ordered a box today. The 9.3x82 isn't going to work as the rim is too small and slips past the ejectors. I have some 9.3x74 brass on the way but I think these .405 basic straight cases are going to be the best bet. I can't thank you guys enough for your help. Going to get this rifle shooting yet.image.jpg

[Leatherman]

So I got the .405 basic brass, trimmed them to length and annealed 6 of them to test. I may have done it wrong as I just heated the brass from the middle up until it started to turn red and knocked it into a can of water. I then ran them through the full length sizeing die but with the die bottomed out there still is about 1/8" in the shell holder that can't be sized. I will need to trim the rim ever so little so do I just trim the remaining 1/8 " of the base to spec while I have it in the lathe? I got some slight wrinkles lengthwise on two of the cases and an indent on one that had a dent in it to start. Should I fire form these before I load them? I have been reading on forums and watching utube videos on resizing brass and read last night to always put your brass in 3/4" of water and anneal the rest as not to soften the base. If that is the case how would you form the base without annealing ?. And does it matter with these black powder preasure cartridges ?i tried resizeing one brass without annealing it and didn't get very far. Re sizeing and working the brass should harden the base a bit and fire forming should harden it too. Once I have the brass fitting into the chamber I will have to load a bullet and check the throat diameter as it has to have .003" minimum gap I have read.

[mike ford]

Leatherman.
When annealing cases, try holding the cases in your fingers, and it's not necessaryto heat the cases "red"( in fact this hurts it). I will say with confidence that you will not be able to hold the cases until they get hot enough to hurt the heads.After heating just drop the cases in water. The cases that won't go all the way into the sizing die, may chamber try themfirst.

Mike

[collath]

Leatherman,

The base should be OK unless it really got hot. The problem is the shell holder takes up that little bit of space at the head of the case and you can’t fully form it to the rim. Have you tried them in the gun? Sometimes there is just enough room for them to chamber. It’s better to be lucky than good. The wrinkles are probably lube dents and will come out when you shoot them. The dent at the mouth should come out with the expander. You may need to reduce the diameter of the expander anyway to match the bullet and give a good pull.

You can trim the heads down in your lathe but before I would do that I would sacrifice one case and section it through the head so you can actually see the shape and thickness of the web you are dealing with. Do it to one of the cases you already fully formed and you will see exactly where the metal must be removed. It should be below the point where the body meets the web in order to keep the strength in that area. Go easy and take only what you need to fit. Same goes for the rim.

I sometimes make a swage out of heavy plate to form the final bit of head in a press. You can do this by boring and polishing a hole the correct size in a piece of half inch plate and chamfering the working side a bit. Lube and press the case in square then use a punch shaped to the contour of the web to push it out. Sometimes I make several holes in steps just to make it easier. You can use a sizing die by pushing the case all the way in with a press but be careful if it is thin on the end as it may crack. And don’t forget to lube it well especially by the base. You may need to use a flash hole uniformer afterwards.

Thanks, collath

[Leatherman]

I finished sizeing my 405 basic brass last night after getting my new Summit press. Plenty of power in this press. I did cut away a brass that I crunched and see that the brass is swaged to just below the web so I feel confident I can just trim the very little bit left needed to chamber the round in the gun. It still hangs up on that 1/8" of the web. The rim needs a tad trimmed of too. I do not have a lathe and am trying to do this in a drill press. Anyone have a suggestion how to chuck a brass in a drill press and support the case to trim the base and rim? I am useing a drill bit that fits pretty tight in the neck to keep the neck from collapsing but it doesn't always align exactly straight and wobbles. The collet also makes a mark in the brass neck if you tighten it too tight. I thought of trying to find a coned tail end like a lathe that could be chucked in the press and use that on the neck end and make a pilot end that would fit in the primer hole and anchor it in the drill press table so as it would spin also and raise the table enough to hold the case while it spun. And then trim with a file and polish.

[sharps4590]

I tried several different ways to use my drill press to....spin cases in an attempt to do the same thing you're talking about. I was never successful but then I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Hopefully one of the guys with vastly greater experience than me know a way. The "coned head" you mention is either a "live center" or "dead center". With the live center the cone, or point, turns with the material. The dead center doesn't. If there's a way to make either work on a drill press that would do it, good idea. I think you would need some kind of taper chuck for the center to fit into and maybe a machinist vise to hold the fitting. One could level the drill press table and dial in the machinist vise to plumb with the drill press chuck with the X-Y axis and I believe you would "be there"...but I'm going to defer to about anyone on this one!!!

Many years ago I had a similar problem with an 1886 Win. in 40-82. The case necks on the Bertram brass were too thick and wouldn't chamber. With a great deal of time and a small triangular file I took the necks down a teensy bit at a time then finished them off smooth with wet/dry sandpaper and steel wool. It worked and I suppose the same could be done at the case head....which brings up one of several reasons I finally bought a much wanted lathe. What took hours before takes minutes now. Today there is available several table top lathes that would work admirably for turning brass and unlike 25-30 years ago when I did the 40-82 brass they don't cost an arm and a leg!

[collath]

Leatherman,

I used a lathe equip with a collet and drawbar system to hold the rim of the case while turning the head. You had to grip it so the edge of the rim was just proud of the collet and there wasn’t much to hold onto but it worked if you didn’t get greedy. Then you could turn it around and turn the rim. I don’t have that lathe any longer so what I do now is drill the flash hole out with a #44 drill to clear a 2-56 screw. Then I make a rod that is formed for a close fit to the inside of the case and the web of the head. Then centered, drilled and tapped to accept the 2-56 screw on the web end of the rod. It just needs to be long enough to go through the case and leave enough to grab. You drop the rod in the case put the screw though the flash hole and tighten it up a bit with a small washer. I put it in the lathe I have now and run it in the direction that tightens the screw so it won’t come loose while you are doing it. I am sure this will work in a drill press as well. I wouldn’t worry too much about opening the flash hole as it is only going from about 0.080” to 0.086” and I have never had any issues. You already have a sectioned case to pattern the end of the rod after. Usually they will run pretty true and are easy to dress with a file.

Thanks, collath

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
OK, here are my two cents worth. If you don't have some type vise for your drillpress, you need one. A cheap, truck load tool sale type crossslide type is convienent, but a regular drillpress vise will work. You can make up two "centers" with points on the end. One would be temporarily chucked in the drill press. The other,made to fit into the flashhole without harming the primerpocket(you can make these by turning them against a file with the drill press).This one would be held("square")in the vise.It may be necessary to clamp this center between two thin pieces of wood in the vise. Once this is done, you can extend the spindle to the length necessary to accept the cartridge case, and line up the points of these two centers as precisely as possible. At this point,clamp the vise to hold it in that position. You have then made yourself a "jury rigged" vertical lathe that can be used to file the head to the diameter needed. Just be careful to avoid the case comming loose and be sure to use a "safe edge" file. You can use the close fitting drill shank in the neck, as you described, or make a closer fitting plug with a file in the drillpress. If you ever do decide a lathe is a requirement of life,the easiest thing to do would be turn a groove ahead of the rim, to the diameter of the final case head, with a parting(cutoff)tool.This avoids closing up the primer pocket/flashhole. BTY, once the bottom center is set, you can't raise or lower the table, or you will change the alignment.
Mike

[Leatherman]

OK I went and bought a small lathe and made some pilots to hold the brass so it spins true. I only had to trim a very small amount off the base where the sizeing die stoped , to the rim. I also had to trim the rim down to fit the extractor and chamber which both only took a couple of minutes to do. Now I am ready to load but could use some advise. I have two bullets to try. Both are #2 Lyman alloy , one is 200 grain, the other is 245 grain. Sized .365" for my .364 bore. Both are plain base flat nose. I have been useing 35 to 37 grains of 3031 powder in my 9.3x72s with 193 and 200 grain copper jacked bullets. I would like to try some Acurate 5744 and Reloader7 powders as I have read they work well in straight walled cartridges of the black powder era as a Nitro for black substitute. Keep in mind this is a double rifle I am loading for so I will need to duplicate what they had then to regulate the barrels. The barrels were proofed in 1935 so we aren't talking black powder load velocities either. Any one have a starting point in the powders mentioned? This case is 80mm, about 1/4" longer than the 9.3x72 which the 3031 powder didn't fill. I really am more interested in what would be a maximum load so I know to stay under that for sure. image.jpg

[sharps4590]

You probably already know this but I'll throw it out there anyway. I can't remember if you mentioned or showed your rifle stamped as to the bullet weight. That would be the place to start there. Then if you know or can learn the original velocity of that load duplicate it. It may or may not regulate. From what I understand from others is that the recoil impulse and duration from our more modern powders sometimes shoots to a different POI even though the velocity and bullet weight match the original ballistics.

As far as loads I can't offer any. There is programs out there that will calculate pressures and if you have access to one that would be a help. I've also been told to use them judiciously. From my experience the powders you listed sound very good but as you mentioned the IMR-3031 doesn't give very good case fill, neither will any of the others. Consequently a filler of some kind may be necessary for consistent loads. While I have never used any of the slower burning powders in my rifles similar to yours I know of several knowledgeable handloaders who have. They will offer a better case fill but again I can't offer any place to start. Seems all I really did was dance around your question but hopefully there is a nugget or two in there of some benefit.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
Sharps4590 gave good advice, but if you want to avoid the filler, try the 5744 first, it is advertised as not needing filler. 9.3x 72R modern loads would be a good place to start.The heavier 72R loads may have been more powerful than the 80R loads. The rifle will tell you what it wants, you just have to listen. If the barrels cross, the load is too fast.If they shoot wide, it is too slow. You need to hold the rifle in your hands( not in a rest, but can rest your hand),and sit up,so your body moves with recoil.When you shoot the first barrel, you need to shoot the second just as quickly as you can get back on target.Doing this it is hard to know which bullet hit where. I solve this by using two targets, one next to the other. I then shoot the right barrel at the right target, and the left barrel at the left target. Let the barrels cool to ambient temp. between pairs. Once you have fired 3 pairs, you can place one target on top of the other and mark the holes. This will give a clear picture of where each barrel shoots.
Now that you have bought a lathe, I'm sure you will make life a lot easier for yourself, and not just with guns and handloading.
Good luck,
Mike