New Member-Looking for Ammo

[jamned]

Hi all, I am a new member from Michigan, looking forward to increasing my knowledge on German guns.

I have a combination gun with 8x80r rifle barrel. Would like a couple rds just to go with the gun. Thanks, Jim.

[m-4]

Welcome Jim,
How did you determine 8x80R? Have you done a chamber cast? Dixon lists that calibre as an experimental Brenneke cartridge & doesn't even list dimensions. What make of gun is this? You may want to provide a good photo of the markings on the underside of the bbl & a sketch with dimensions from the chamber cast and I am sure someone can help you out.

m-4

[mike ford]

jamned,
Could it be marked 8.8x80 ? If so, it would be 9.3x80R. Is it 8x60R? m-4 gave good advice.
Mike

[jamned]

I had a chamber cast done, but misunderstood the gunsmith. The cal. is 9.3x80R. Sorry about that. Yes, it has 8.8x80 on the under side of barrel, I thought that meant it was an 8mm cal. Anyway, does anyone have a couple rds to sell? Jim.

[mike ford]

Jim,
Now that we know what we are dealing with, your request is going to be pretty hard to grant. 9.3x72R is commercially avaliable and 9.3x82R is fairly common; but 9.3x80R will be pretty hard to find (from real ammo collectors)if you want factory loaded ammo. If you want to shoot it and are a handloader,you can shorten 9.3x82R cases and load it like any other cartridge. If you want to shoot it, and don't handload, you can shoot 9.3x72R ammo. Shooting the shorter chartridges is not technically the best solution, but a fair number of non handloaders do it without problems. If you just want a couple dummy cartridges to "show" with the gun, you can buy a couple individual cases(I think Buffalo Arms sells single cases) and have a local handloader shorten them up a make up the dummys.
Mike

[m-4]

Jim,
Dixons book lists the 9.3x80R as being a Collath cartridge "A longer version of the 9.3x65R above & similar in appearence to the 9.3x80R express but with a larger base and a slight bottleneck, Produced by both RWS and later DWM"
bullet=9.30
case=80.14
rim=13.00
base=11.35
neck=9.85
DWM case #504

Also listed is a 9.3x80R D Express "this case length was apparently only produced as a "D" type by DWM, Stahl and Utendoerffer and is a rare calibre. It was still listed in the 1928 RWS/Utendoerffer catalog but not offered in 1934
bullet=9.35
case=80.14
rim=12.50
base=11.00
neck=10.05
case Lor/DWM 77B


A 9.3x82R 360 (NIMROD) RWS measures as follows
bullet=9.35
case=81.94
rim=12.50
base=11.05
neck=10.05
These would be a bit more common & probally what you would have to make your cases from unless its the Collath version. It might be easier for you to take measurements from your casting and list the basic dimensions as above. It could then be checked against reference material for proper identification. I do have 1 full box of RWS in this caliber as well as 1 single loaded round & 1 empty cartridge.
Dimension above are metric, coversion to inches= devide by 25.4

m-4

[jamned]

The cartridges I need are the 9.3x80R Collath. It has the slight shoulder & the larger base. I would like to buy a couple rds, if possible, thanks, Jim.

[Leatherman]

Jim,
Dixons book lists the 9.3x80R as being a Collath cartridge "A longer version of the 9.3x65R above & similar in appearence to the 9.3x80R express but with a larger base and a slight bottleneck, Produced by both RWS and later DWM"
bullet=9.30
case=80.14
rim=13.00
base=11.35
neck=9.85
DWM case #504

Also listed is a 9.3x80R D Express "this case length was apparently only produced as a "D" type by DWM, Stahl and Utendoerffer and is a rare calibre. It was still listed in the 1928 RWS/Utendoerffer catalog but not offered in 1934
bullet=9.35
case=80.14
rim=12.50
base=11.00
neck=10.05
case Lor/DWM 77B


A 9.3x82R 360 (NIMROD) RWS measures as follows
bullet=9.35
case=81.94
rim=12.50
base=11.05
neck=10.05
These would be a bit more common & probally what you would have to make your cases from unless its the Collath version. It might be easier for you to take measurements from your casting and list the basic dimensions as above. It could then be checked against reference material for proper identification. I do have 1 full box of RWS in this caliber as well as 1 single loaded round & 1 empty cartridge.
Dimension above are metric, coversion to inches= devide by 25.4

m-4

I just purchased a Collath double rifle chambered in the 9.3 x 80 R Collath . The gentleman who had it before me has advanced ahltimers and can not offer me any information on how he made his brass for this rifle but the rifle came with two dummy rounds in the butt trap and two in the chambers that were made from .405 winchester brass. These dummy rounds measure 11.32 mm at the base with a 13.00 mm rim which pretty much match the specs for the Collath cartridge. In checking the .405 Winchester specs the base measurement is listed as 11.68 mm and the rim is 13.79 mm so he had to have trimmed the .405 brass base and rim on a lathe. You mention that the 9.3x72 should not be shot in the Collath 9.3x80R guns. Is this because of the excessive difference in the size of the base? I ordered a box of Bertram 9.3x82R from Buffalo Arms and the base size on them are 10.79mm which is actually smaller than my Norma 9.3x72R brass I use in my guns chambered in that cartridge. My chamber casting of my Collath has a base diameter of 11.45mm. Which is .13mm larger than the specs of the base size of the Collath brass and .53mm larger than the 9.3x72R brass base. I don't know the tolerances on how much difference between base size and chamber size you can safely shoot a cartridge without danger of rupturing the base or if it is possible to fire form the base to the chamber as you would the shoulder . Can anyone tell me if it would be possible to use the 9.3x82 brass, shortened but with the smaller base?

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
You can give it a try, I reccomend you fireform one case w/o a bullet first. I wrote a more detailed answer, but is was not accepted, maybe it took too long. It said the token had expired-I don't know what a token is.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Good idea, I will get the cream of wheat out. Meanwhile I have ordered some .405 Winchester brass and will try to trim them down to fit. I will post my results.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
The 405 cases are going to be too short,and too large in head dia. While I haven't seen it,I suspect the brass you have with the 405 headstamp has been redrawn, with head swaged to size. It is likely that this was done when there were limited choices for brass. If you can't live with the smaller head diameter of 9.3x82R cases, then it would be better to have 9.3x74R cases redrawn, than .405 Win. Norma 9.3x74R cases are often a few thousanths smaller than other makes and were sometimes used to make 405 ammo, when those cases became scarce.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Your right, I checked the case length on the .405 Win and it is 65.6mm. So how in the world do you draw existing brass from 65mm to 80mm ? 9.3x74R brass is still short as well at 74.42mm and the base size is speced at 11.90 vs 11.35 for the Collath. I have searched on the web and can't find anything on drawing brass cases. Just how original brass is drawn in production with many heating and other steps in the process. As you said the Norma brass on the 9.3 x74 may be smaller diameter and still work in my chamber, all I would have to do is turn the rim down to fit my extractors. I cast some 265 grain bullets and sized them to .365 last night. They are pretty long and I could load them out to make up for the short case. I really want to find out how the .405 Win brass I have was made to the Collath specs.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
The process of redrawing cases is pretty complicated and involves equipment that is not normally avaliable to handloaders, and must be custom made.Basically, it involves running the case into a special die,expanding it to a larger diameter and forcing it back out past a mandrel that is almost as large as the opening in the die. For you to do this would cost enough in equipment that it will not be worthwhile at all. The best thing to do( if you can't live with 9.3x82R) would be have someone with the equipment do it for you.The process also requires sizing the caseheads to a smallar dia(and possibly opening up the primer pocket and flash hole, which may close in the process). Cases made from 405, would be done the same way, just less sizing of the head and more drawing of the length. Sizing to a smaller diameter will cause some lengthening, but usually not enough.To use 9.3x74R cases w/o redrawing will still require resizing(swaging) the head, as well as turning the rim to fit.
Mike

[collath]

Leatherman,

You may want to consider re-boding a 30-30 head to make a full length cartridge. I believe the 9.3 x 80R Collath has rim/head diameters of 12.9 and 11.22 respectively if my source is correct. The 30-30 is 12.85 and 10.72 which puts the head on but the body a little small but that doesn't matter much when doing a re-body. The problem is you have to solder the thin brass tube to the head and that leaves a fairly weak joint. It's a lot of work for not a very strong case. Just thought I would put it out there as an option.

Thanks, collath

[Leatherman]

Leatherman,
The process of redrawing cases is pretty complicated and involves equipment that is not normally avaliable to handloaders, and must be custom made.Basically, it involves running the case into a special die,expanding it to a larger diameter and forcing it back out past a mandrel that is almost as large as the opening in the die. For you to do this would cost enough in equipment that it will not be worthwhile at all. The best thing to do( if you can't live with 9.3x82R) would be have someone with the equipment do it for you.The process also requires sizing the caseheads to a smallar dia(and possibly opening up the primer pocket and flash hole, which may close in the process). Cases made from 405, would be done the same way, just less sizing of the head and more drawing of the length. Sizing to a smaller diameter will cause some lengthening, but usually not enough.To use 9.3x74R cases w/o redrawing will still require resizing(swaging) the head, as well as turning the rim to fit.
Mike

Man I hope the 9.3x82 brass works. Haveing someone draw and swag .405 brass would probably not be cheap. The 9.3x74 brass is probably the best option as I could probably get a swaging die made and do it myself but I would still need to buy some tooling . I wonder if relinning the chambers into 9.3x72 wouldn't be a better option but that may make the gun less desirable to a collector that wants untouched guns versus one that can be used with available cartridges or components. I bought this gun to shoot in double gun competition matches so I will need at least 30 cartridges that will be reloaded a lot so cost is a big factor in this. I won't have my reloading dies for another two weeks, I will try the 9.3x82 brass first and post my results. Thanks for all your suggestions so far.