Help Identify J.P. Sauer drilling made 1891

[Karl]

I’d like some help identifying this J.P. Sauer hammer drilling made in 1891 according to the serial number 40024. Several photos are attached. I can take more photos if needed. The shotgun barrels are 16 gauge, but I don’t know whether it’s chambered for 2 ?” or shorter shells. I’ve measured the rifle bore with pin gauges at .424” (11.75 mm). Looking at the extractor the cartridge is rimmed. I determined the length of the chamber to be about 52 mm by inserting a metal rod until I felt it engage the rifling. I have Cerrosafe somewhere in the basement and will make a chamber cast when I find it. The initial measurements fit the 11.75x52R Grundig. I’m not able to decipher the barrel flat stampings and don’t know if they indicate the chambering. It’s a beautiful gun. The bores are bright and shiny. Any help identifying it or leads are greatly appreciated.
Barrel 1.jpg Barrel flat 1.jpg Barrel 2.jpg Barrels top.jpg Receiver and hammers top.jpg

[mike ford]

Karl,
Since you identified your drilling as having been made in 1891 it predates the use of proof marks, which means that physical measurements will be required for determining information that would otherwise be read directly from the marks. In general, however, we can say the shotgun barrels would have been chambered for the standard shot shells which would have been 65 mm (2 1/2- 2 9/16") rather than the modern 70mm (2 3/4"). Direct measurement will be required to determine if the barrels are choked and if so, the amount of constriction. The rifle barrel may be chambered for a Grundig cartridge, but there are other similar possibilities. Realistically the nominal cartridge may not be identifiable, but as long as you can find or make cases and bullets that fit, you can call it whatever you like. The Crowns marked on the barrel flats are not official proof marks (which didn't exist), rather they are "in house" Sauer quality marks which could be looked on as a type of unofficial proof marks. You will need to make the chamber cast you mentioned. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike Ford

[Karl]

Mike, thanks very much for the prompt reply. I'll continue to look for my Cerrosafe or order a new block. It's a very nice gun. I'd like to tract done a period catalog or other description of the gun and will continue searching on the Internet.
Herman Karl

[Karl]

Drilliing Rifle Cartridge cast.jpg Mike, I made a cast of the rifle chamber. I posted in separate post. Here are the dimensions:
54mm (2.11") length
12mm (.472") base
12mm (.472") base
13.4mm (.528") rim

Bore 10.75mm (.424)

I've looked through Brad Dixon's book on European Sporting Cartridges, but can't find a match.

[mike ford]

Herman,
Look on page 66 of Dixon's book ai 11.15 R LK Express (EXP43). Dimensions of the chamber cast have to be larger than the cartridge, otherwise it won't chamber. Bullets in black powder cartridges are usually smaller than modern practice would be for the barrel, depending on obturation to fit. Black Powder and soft bullets make this possible. Those of us that use NfB loads must use better fitting bullets. You should be able to use 8x57R cases and sized 44 Special/ Mag. cast bullets.
Mike