Might have met my match..

[sharps4590]

I bought a twin to this rifle. Mine is in pretty good shape, certainly a good shooter and with a little TLC not even bad looking. It is not Nitro proofed which isn't a difficulty. I do have pictures of my rifle but they're on my desk top.....and I ain't...

https://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...n_id=102774103

Here's where I'm stumped. I made a chamber cast and can't find anything like it. It's a shorty, 1.5 in. long with a groove diameter of 0.350, head/base diameter of 0.445 and rim diameter of 0.520. The rim looks oddly thick at 0.13. None of my sources, COTW or Donnelly's shows anything remotely close. Any help?

I'm going to go look for a donor case among those two publications. IF my deduction is right about the rim thickness this might be my first endeavor at soldering or J-B welding a washer to a head.

ANY thoughts appreciated!

Oh, I forgot to add, it is a slightly bottlenecked case with the typical long, black powder neck.

Vic

[mike ford]

Vic,
The chamber cast suggests 9x38R Tesching . It has a bullet diameter of 8.99mm. I suggest 303 Savage as a donor case or if you can't find any, either 30-30 (a little small, will expand) or 303 British (a little large must swage the head a little). Graf may have some of the 303 Savage. Really, 9.3x72R cases could be used but shortening that much seems wasteful to me, might have to turn or ream the neck, and the rim is too thin.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Heavens to Betsy!....thank you Mike. I don't know but have heard 303 Savage is difficult to find. I have an abundance of 30-30 someone gave me. I think there's some 303 Brit on a shelf as well. I have to leave for church shortly so will do a comparison tomorrow.

9 X 38R Tesching.....I've heard or read of Tesching cartridges but don't recall ever seeing one. Son-of-a-gun....

[mike ford]

Vic,
If you use 30-30, I suggest you wrap the head with a thin strip of tape or cut file label to center the case in the chamber, for the first fireforming. It will help to use fired cases, already expanded some. All the cases I mentioned, plus 220 Swift can be used, if you headspace it on the shoulder. Since it is a bolt gun, the diameter of the rim as well as the thickness may be critical. You may remember when we talked about reforming 45-70 rims to approximate MB cases. You Tube site Rakum Projects shows ways to do that, similar to my article. I don't think he got the idea from me; I think we both got the Ideas from even earlier sites. By adding a rim, you could use American made, brass, 7.62X39 cases (instead of using brass rod as he and I did, I suggest using thick wall tubing with an id the right diameter, to avoid waste. Brass nuts of the right size to fit the case after removing the threads, say 7/16" or 10mm, may work too). Your project is very interesting.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Thank you yet again, Mike, for your knowledge and expertise.

I checked the dimensions of the cases you mentioned and it looked to me the 303 is the best choice for me and my skill level. I can trim the cases then I believe size them in 38/357 dies enough to get them in the chamber, then fire form. I believe I can thicken the rim as you describe or brass washers, then turn the bevel in the base, if what I'm saying makes sense.

[mike ford]

Vic,
It does make sense. As I recall, you have a lathe; you could make a button die to re-form the rim. You should turn a groove the width of a parting tool right in front of the rim, so it will bend instead of shearing off (ask me how I know). If you have or can buy a set of 35 Rem. dies and shorten them up, you may be able to form the cases and load them, without having to have dies made. If you don't use the expander button the case might hold the smaller bullet. Neck sizing with shortened dies usually works ok because they will all be used in the same rifle.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I'm going to start playing with some 303 brass today. I believe I have a mold or two that might work.

[mike ford]

Vic,
Did you find 303 Savage, or do you mean 303 British? For the bullet, at most you may have to make a sizing die, but cast bullets are pretty forgiving any way,
Mike

[sharps4590]

Well, actually neither....lol! I thought what I had was 303 Brit but it turns out it was 30-40 Krag, which worked just as well. I monkeyed around with several dies and 3 pieces of brass and ended up with 2 cases. Now that I have the die procedure figured out it should go a lot quicker. It doesn't require much lathe time. All I need to do is fire form them and trim to length. I'm low on Unique, what else have you used? I was thinking Bullseye because the case is so small.

The case neck ended up interesting. The thickness of the Krag neck is between .009 and .010. Oddly, so is the finished case. It is also actually a bit shorter than 1.5 in.

I took one of the cases and primed it, loaded it and it fired just fine. Obviously that's very preliminary but.....it might work as is.....I hope. No matter if it doesn't.

Oh, I checked the twist and to my surprise it's 1-20. I didn't believe what I was seeing and checked it 4-5 times before I was convinced. One bullet is .350 which is smaller than I'd like but, as this is a BP cartridge I can cast it between 1-30 or 1-40 and it should bump up. That's what they di way back when and it worked well. The other is .357 and I believe it can be sized down .003 with no difficulty, Just need a die, as you said.

[mike ford]

Vic,
I didn't mention 30-40 Krag cases because they are harder, right now to find than 303 British and are close to the same except minor differences that won't make any difference. I depend on 30-40 cases I've had since the 60s and 70s. The lesson is when you find something unusual or will work as a basic case; get it and keep it. I like to use cast bullets a couple thousandths over groove size, but that isn't written in stone. I use a .364" bullet in a .358" groove diameter 9.3x72R. That is .006" and there is room in the chamber for the neck to release the bullet. You might size the 357 bullets in the smallest 38 or 9mm die you have or can borrow and try it with the .350 one before making or buying anything. If you have a friend that loads 9mm, you might get some bullets from him and find out there is a bullet you can buy in bulk cheaper than you can cast them.
Yes, you can use Bullseye to fireform, I used to use it all the time, I just ran low. You can use HP38 or any number of "fast" powders you have on hand. Good luck.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Alrighty! I have cases and even have them fireformed and have a bullet that works...all is well in the Ozarks, almost. I'm having a bit of difficulty in coming up with a means to get the headspace with that hugely thick rim. Mike, there is not enough width of the rim to fix the headspace such as is done with the 45-90 cases when converting to 11.15 Mauser. The rim is barely 0.0375 from the case body to the edge of the rim. I thought O ring but cant find one that is thin enough. All I can find extend beyond the width of the rim. I cant find brass or copper washers that will work either and I don't believe my lathe skills are up to making them....though I might have to try. Given it is a low pressure, BP cartridge and they have all fired so far, I've considered using them as they are. The web of the Krag case extends pretty far into the chamber, certainly much farther than the original case would have.

Any and all ides and/or suggestions appreciated.

[mike ford]

Vic,
When I was working on a solution to make 11.15X60R cases, one of the things I did was to swage a rim onto a rimless (actually, belted with the belt turned off) case and turned it to fit. It was actually a better fit than the solution I wound up with, but I didn't adopt it because so many more steps were involved. The YouTube channel Rakum Projects deals with some of the same problems and is worth a read. If it doesn't show a solution, it may help you avoid a failure. It is not too hard to make one case; the trick is to find a way to make a lot of cases, with as few steps, and as little waste as possible. As an example, you can find an expensive brass rod large enough to make one solder on rim, but to make a lot of them leaves most of the brass in the chip pan, not to mention parting them off and holding them. I was given a task to thread a lot of barrels 1/2"-28 and make thread protectors, for a dealer friend. It would take several steps and take a lot of time to make them from steel bar stock, and the end item would have less steel in it than the waste generated by the process. I could buy a box of 7/16" -16 nuts for less than the cost a bar and the shipping. Nuts are already cut, have a hole already in them, almost tap hole size and are hex shape. Being hex shape allowed drilling and tapping them in a socket held in a collet. Then they would self-center in the socket, which would two at a time, also. Nuts wouldn't work for you, but the basic idea of saving steps would. A penny only costs a penny, if it is not large enough, you can buy 20 nickels for a dollar. While it is not as elegant a solution, if all else fails, you can set the cases up to headspace on what shoulder there is, instead of the rim. In the end, I know you will make something work.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Ahhh....the difference in the way generations think.

Mike, this morning I had breakfast with a young friend from church. We got to talking about the case and my challenge with headspace, which he knew nothing of. Todd asked a few questions and I said an O ring would be the easiest, quickest solution. His eyes lit up and he said, "you know I can 3-D print any sized O ring you can imagine for a couple pennies". Well, no, I didn't know that....lol! I gave him the dimensions and a case and he's going to come up with a couple prototypes. Once we know they fit correctly, 10 minutes and a couple dollars will provide all I can possibly ever need.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.....lol!!

[mike ford]

Vic,
You are right, a 3D printer would have never entered my mind.
Mike