E. Schmidt & Habermann Suhl Drillings

[Thantos]

Hello All,
I am a new member of the GGCA, and have recently inherited my fathers Rifle and Pistol collection. He was a life long collector of everything weapons or Military. So with that being said I am hoping that you all can help me ID some of the collection. Just for the record NONE of these will be for sale! I am just trying to gather information on the age and history of these beautiful guns.

I have taken quite a few pictures and will be up loading them to Photo bucket due to their size. If anyone would like copy's let me know and I will email them direct.

Thanks In advance for any and all help.

http://s182.photobucket.com/user/tha...bermann%20Suhl

[mike ford]

Thantos,
Welcome.
I couldn't get the photos to open, but I am comtuter illilerate.In general, I don't have good luck, trying to ID guns with small Photo Bucket photos. It is important to be able to read the markings, and this is often difficult with small photos. Even when you can "blow them up", you can't read them becaus they are out of focus.
Mike

[Thantos]

Mike,
Thanks for the welcome, I see that there has been over a hundred views with only one reply to this post. Please let me know if the Link is not working, and if not I will try something else. The pictures should be of very good quality and I was able to "blow them up" and still read them very clearly. If not please let me know, sometimes they look great on the originators computer, but not everyone else's!

Thanks Gene

[Axel E]

As far as I can see from your photos, your ESHA drilling is the common type of a so-called underlever "Roux action", in fact Purdey's double underbolting with dolls head, ones. The German gunmakers had the abominable habit of naming and advertising their actions only after the position and motion of the opening lever, so any action with a push-forward underlever was a "Roux", top lever "Scott", side swing underlever under triggerguard "Lancaster", under foreend "Lefaucheux". These "Roux" hammer drillings were a common product of nearly all Suhl and Zella-Mehlis gunmakers around 1900.
According to the proofmarks your drilling was made and proofed between April1, 1893 and March 1912. The barrels were made by the barrelmaker Heinrich Klett, Suhl, "K in ratchet" stamp ( "Klette" is a burr in German).
67/49 is a gauge number, used from 1893 to 1912, marking a bore/land (not groove or bullet!) diameter between .410 and .420". This indicates it is chambered for one of the many blackpowder & lead bullet 11 mm cartridges. I suspect the 11.15x60R LK or the 11.15x65R LK "Drillingspatrone", but this has to be verified by a chamber cast. Cases for both these cartridges may be made from 36 gauge brass shotgun cases available from specialized dealers. These 11mm cartridges lost out in popularity to the 9.3x72R about 1900.
Schmidt & Habermann, Roschstr.1, Suhl was one of the larger Suhl gunmakers, second to none in quality. The company was founded in 1858. They are less known than f.i. Sauer&Sohn, Krieghoff, the Merkels and Mefferts or the 40 Heyms as the made most of their guns "For the trade", many of them marked by famous "names" of country or city gunmakers who merely retailed them. F.i. all the famous "Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig" bolt action rifles are marked in hidden places with the Schmidt & Habermann ESHA trademark. The company existed until 1945 when it was closed by the Soviets.

[Axel E]

Oops, i forgot about the shot barrels. These are blackpowder proofed for 16 gauge 65mm = 2 1/2" shells. Both shot barrels are choke bored, crown/W stamps.

[Thantos]

WOW, thanks for all the great info, I have to be honest in that I only understood about 2/3 of all that! LOL... Just a few questions:

What is meant by - "Klette" is a burr in German" as in a sliver of metal or a thorn from a plant???

67/49 is a gauge number, but this has to be verified by a chamber cast. - Should I do this is it important?

Is there a way to narrow down the date from 1893 to 1912?

What would you estimate the current value at?

Thanks

[Axel E]

Klette is a fruit of a plant full of little hooked thorns so that the seeds or the whole fruit stick to animal hair or to your clothes to be transported to a better place. So the spiked round circle around the K is something like a symbol for the second name Klett.
Not the gauge number, but the cartridge the chamber takes. There were many cartridges that used the same diameter lead bullets. Before 1900, almost any German gunsmith, before opening shop, designed his own rifle cartridge, just enough different to that of his competitor next town to avoid interchangeability. So it may be a 11.15x60R LK, 11.15x60R Mauser, 11x52R Kropatschek-Heissig and so on... You have to know which cas the barrel is chambered for, just as you have to know if it is a .45 Colt, a .45-70, a .45-110 Sharps or a .450 3 1/4" BPE before buing ammo.
Already answered this! As the drilling is chambered for one of the many 11mm blackpowder cartridges it was more likely made 1893-1900 than 1900-1912.
I made it a habit never attach a price on a gun I have not handled myself. Here in Germany such simple hammer drillings in obsolete chamberings usually go for about Euro 500.-, US$ 650.-. You see, the German market is very different from the US one. As an experience arms dealer once said: "Any gun is worth as much as the next guy, who thinks he cannot live without it, is willing to pay."

[mike ford]

Thantos,
It sounds like what Axel is describing is what we call, in the south, a cockelburr (sometimes sold to the unaware as "porcupine eggs").You didn't mention if you intend to shoot the drilling, if so some of us can help you determine what you need.
Mike

[Thantos]

Thanks Mike,
No not interested in shooting them, but I would love to have all the correct info and history I can on the guns. What is the best way to get the exact rifle round used for this Drillings? Latex casting of the chamber, slug the barrel, let me know what the usual methods are for discovering this...


Thanks

[mike ford]

Thantos,
The best material for chamber casts is "Cerrosafe", it is carried by several dealers, such as Brownell's. I use a lead ball to slug the barrels. I like to know the groove diameter at the muzzle as well as ahead of the chamber. If you don't care about the diameter at the muzzle, you can just extend the chamber cast into the barrel an inch or so.
Mike