Restoring, Scoping & more to my Schmidt & Habermann Model 21 8x51 Kurtz. Help please?

[LaRenegade]

Hello there all,

I have a Schmidt & Habermann Model 21 in 8x51mm Short (Kurtz) that does not have a scope mounted and the base of the receiver has never had any adaptation for mounting a scope. The rifle was just recently recovered & it was not taken care of by the “thief” (SICKENING JUST MENTIONING THIS) & will have to be re-blued. Luckily no major pitting occurred on outside & hopefully with the right master bluer doing the job needed; the rifle will turn out as beautiful as it was, though we all know the real value has been destroyed when this occurs. Hopefully not completely and with that in mind I'm thinking if re-blueing anyway that I should have scope mounting system installed. Fact is though installing scope & mounts on this rifle, which is unlike any other rifle I have as all my other rifles have modern mounts/scopes etc. is unfamiliar to me so I need advice please. Do I go old style scope & mounts for the rifle to look correct on this rifle like an old Zeiss 2.5 from that era? Will mounting a modern scope on this rifle match or just look out of place completely? Can anyone recommend a smith that can mount the period correct scope & mounts? What are the choices of mount types or styles when mounting a scope on a rifle like this S&H md 21? From the pictures I’ve seen of this type action, mounts requires 2 slots opened up in the base. Any advice about the mounts & scope is appreciated just need to know the options available & what looks & works best.

Just remembered the rear fixed sight base for dovetail insert (sight leaves) is there on the barrel but the sight leaves are missing. Anyone know where I might find replacement leaves that dovetail into the rear sight base? Any idea who made the rear sights put on the rifles built by S&H/others or if there is anyone that can make similar matching rear sight leaves today?

Does anyone know who can restore this rifle? It was built in 1923, and when I last had it the appearance was NRA Excellent with a fantastic blued finish all over the rifle. Now, that has been destroyed on the bolt shroud, cocking piece, ejector and more. Don't know if it is possible to only re-blue the bolt & bolt parts only and try to blend or match close with the original finish that is still there on the barrel & most of the rifles action. "Probably wishful dreaming?" Just hope to find someone that can do the blueing job correct and bring back the beautiful lightweight rifle I had!

Last issue to cover, the caliber! As it is in the hard to find 8x51 Kurtz what caliber could it be rechambered into that is a short action caliber. What is larger than the 8mm that would be a good caliber for this lightweight rifle and not kick like a mule and give good results with medium game? 338 Federal?

Any help or opinion is most graciously appreciated! I want to keep value of rifle intact but want to use it safely. I do reload common pistol & rifle calibers and if staying with 8x51 Kurtz is more sensible than rechambering then please tell me.

Thanks all & Later,
LaRenegade

[germanguns1234]

If it were mine and I had to put a scope on it, I think that I would find a contemporary German scope in about the same condition--or better--and have G. Wohler or NECG mount it with claw mounts. A lot of old scopes, some with at least part of the mounts, are being sold on www.egun.de. And I would not re-chamber it. I think you can make the cartridge out of .308s. There should be some of them around.

[Axel E]

Here are two M21s with original caw mouts and scopes. top: Zeiss 2 ¾ x "Zielmi".
below: Hensoldt 4x "Zieljagd". Note how the front bases are dovetailed into the "square ring". this was the original purpose of this boss on the S&H M21.


I would leave the rifle in 8x51, though this cartridge used I = .318" diameter bullets. As Jon wrote, the cases may be formed from .308 Win cases. Select a brand with thin case walls that do not need neck turnig or reaming, fi WW. A friend of mine uses .321" .32 Win Special bullets.

[LaRenegade]

Here are two M21s with original caw mouts and scopes. top: Zeiss 2 ¾ x "Zielmi".
below: Hensoldt 4x "Zieljagd". Note how the front bases are dovetailed into the "square ring". this was the original purpose of this boss on the S&H M21.

I would leave the rifle in 8x51, though this cartridge used I = .318" diameter bullets. As Jon wrote, the cases may be formed from .308 Win cases. Select a brand with thin case walls that do not need neck turnig or reaming, fi WW. A friend of mine uses .321" .32 Win Special bullets.

Thank you both for replying with good opinions & Dead-on info. "Axel" I haven't seen the second rifle you pictured on any thread before. (above picture is of the 2nd rifle only) Can u tell me where U found that thread? I would like to try to track down the member that posted it. If he has the rifle maybe he knows more about them than I do(most likely) so I would like to get in touch with him if possible.

Think I agree with you "Germanguns1234" with resizing brass and keep the 8x51mm chamber. I already load a wildcat in .35 Whelen Ackley Improved so fire forming & loading my own cost isn't new & cost so much less anyway.

Again thanks for the quick replies of knowledge & wisdom! I'll take all the knowledge anyone is willing to share about guns & related as I know I don't know enough. Hopefully another 50 years lived I may know a little more.

[Axel E]

Mike, this second rifle was never shown on the net before. It is owned by a fellow forester and hunter nearby here in Germany. It was built on a ESHA M21 action by or for Peterlongo, R.Mahrholdt, Innsbruck, Austria, in 5.6x52R aka .22 Savage High Power. Full stocked in the Alpine style. Proofed by the Ferlach proofhouse in 1941. Most the owner knows about it was told by me. All Suhl or S&H markings were removed. Mahrholdt shows the Schmidt & Habermann M21 action in the 1931 issue of his Waffenlexikon, chambered in .22 Savage HP and .250-3000 Savage, but does not mention the real maker. Instead, he called it the "Mahrholdt-Savage-Repetierstutzen". The mail-order house Burgsmüller, Kreiensen at the same time called it "Burgsmüller's new light roebuck repeater in 6.5x54", again without mentioning S&H.
I bought the first rifle, a 6.5x54 Mauser kurz, on an egun auction about a year ago, long after I had written up other M21s in "Der Waffenschmied # 40, 2009", available from the GGCA bookstore.
The 8x51 is loaded by another German, but he has a Mauser K actioned rifle so chambered.
A correct replacement for the rear sight should be easy to find. Most likely any gunsmith familiar with German guns will get you such a thing, but they usually come a raw parts that have to be filed and fitted to the rifle. BTW, I would have only the bolt parts reblued. The bolt stop/ejector housing may be easily replaced via Numrich or others, as it is identical to the M98 military ones. But, without seeing photos of the offending parts, it is hard to give any advice as to "refinish or not".

[Axel E]

PS: I strongly advise against reboring a M21 to such a modern high-pressure number like .338 Federal! Remember, the M21s are small-ring actions without a third safety lug and are now 90 years old. The 8x51 is listed with a CIP max pressure of 3400 bar, while the .308 Winchester allows 4150 bar (electric transducer).

[sharps4590]

I can recommend New England Custom Guns. The work they did for me on a T&S drilling was more than satisfactory. Before I go any farther I need to say that I am passionate about originality. I wouldn't have scope rings installed. An unaltered action/rifle from that era is getting difficult to find. I don't believe a quality rebluing will detract enough from the value to hurt its originality. Nor would I rechamber the rifle, for the ballistic reasons before stated in addition to "they're only original once".

Having said that....it is your rifle and it should give you pleasure in owning it. I do believe modern rings and a modern scope would look considerably out of place. Neat ol' rifles!!!