H. Scherping Hammer double rifle 9.3X??R

[cgregg]

Looking for a little help on an H. Scherping Hammer double rifle. The chamber was cast and the dimensions are shown in the picture. The perplexing part is the length of the neck it is to short for 9,3x57R and to long for 9,3x62R. The rifle’s only marking is a crown over V proof mark. I understand this to be a proof added to already built or on hand rifle’s when the proof laws were issued. This leads me to believe the rifle pre-dates 1891 and was likely a black powder round.

After some more study of the chamber cast the should of the “bottle neck” is not very pronounced. I am thinking that maybe the riffle started life as a 9.3X48R and was rechambered to a 9.3X58R or 360 nitro express. It is possible that what I think is a shoulder is just remnants of the 9.3X48R. I know of German guns showing up in England after the war and rechambering to 360 would make sense for acquiring ammo there. The twist rate is around 1 turn in 30” so a light bullet is in order.

I am not versed enough in this era of cartridges to know what direction to go to figure this out. A 303 with a paper patched .357 bullet fire formed and performed well. However, it is clear that the case is to short. I am leaning toward taking a 9.3X72R and shortening it to match the chamber cast. Any insights or help in figuring this out is much appreciated.

[mike ford]

cgregg, To ID the nominal cartridge from only a chamber cast is always a little difficult, but the older the rifle is the more difficult it becomes. It is really hard when the rifle predates the proof law and you have no markings to depend on. Also, in the early days, chamber dimensions were often pretty loose. A cartridge had to be smaller in diameter than the chamber, but there could be some differences in length. Some old chambers showed no neck and the throat is sometimes mistaken for a neck area. Also bullets in old black powder cartridges were often smaller in diameter than the barrel dimensions indicate. Obturation was depended upon to expand the bullet to fit. The cartridge had to be available when the rifle was made. I found a couple possibilities, if you make some assumptions. If you assume the neck area of the chamber cast is actually a throat, the 9.6x46R( I had no barrel dimensions to check)Stiegele Target would fit. It was available when the rifle was made and the cartridge being named Stiegele helps.( see page 97 in Dixon's European Sporting Cartridges). A second possibility is 9.3x57R (either D or E version) This is the 360 - 2 1/4" if the E version and the "Daddy" of the 360 base family of cartridges in Germany. The date fits but the chamber dimensions would be a little generous ( I still don't have barrel dimensions).( see page 52 in Dixon's). If Axel comes in with a different cartridge, accept his as most likely to be correct. If you want to shoot it, it doesn't make much difference what you call it, as long as you can make or find cases and bullets to fit. I hope you find this useful.
Mike

[cgregg]

Mike, Thank you and yes this is helpful in confirming I seem to be on the right track. I have 9.3X72R coming from Buffalo arms with the plan to shorten it to match the chamber cast. My session with 303 and paper patched 357 went well. Getting to the correct length case will give me a little more powder capacity. Next up are properly sized bullets. Would you know a source of 9.3 cast bullets? I would like to mess around with a couple weights before ordering a mould. Would you have any thoughts on using a nitro for black charge in this rifle? Cgregg

[mike ford]

cgregg,
If you can use .303 British case ( you didn't specify that or 303 Savage), you should also be able to use 30-40 Krag cases. There is a small difference in case length, but .303 is usually more available. I wouldn't stray too much from the original 190 grain bullet weight, then with round nose or blunt nose bullets, due to the slow twist rate. Don't try to speed it up to make up for longer bullets. The bullet I use is a self cast H&G 512c that drops out as a 208 gr .368" bullet, but I don't know if mold blocks are still available. Since you paper patch bullets, I would think it would be easier to just paper patch soft lead 200 grain bullets from a Lyman 358315 or RCBS 35-200 mold block. Buffalo Arns might have some on hand to try, before you buy mold blocks. Nitro for black loads in this size cartridge often use 4198 or Unique powder and Ed Harris published what he called "The Load" in Gun Digest some time ago. This load used 13 gr of Red Dot. Case fillers are very controversial and Harris said not to use them in "The Load". I use a tuft of Kapok tamped down over the powder, but in view of the controversy I don't recommend anyone else use it. Everyone has to consider the dangers and make their own decision. You might find loading data for Nfb loads for this or similar cartridges in "Cartridges of The World" in either British , European ,or Obsolete American cartridge sections. Good luck.
Mike

[cgregg]

Mike, Thanks again for the information. It shoots well with 303 brass and paper patched .357 bullet with Swiss 1.5. I am moving over to 30-40 Krag brass as I can get more lenght out of it. Working on sizing to get it chambered as the taper toward the head in the 360 is not in the 30-40 Krag so I am working a sizing method. I found a 190gr 9.3MM bullet mold today on ebay so I should be casting bullets pretty soon.

[mike ford]

cgregg,
That is great. I'm not sure that you are limited to blackpowder and lead bullets. I haven't seen your barrel ( some have very thin lands), but you might be able to use jacketed 9.3 bullets intended for 9.3x72R. These bullets are made for barrels of varying bore diameters. Also, there are ways to load "Nitro for Black" ammo. However, if you are satisfied and are having fun,,,, Drine on.
Mike

[Leatherman]

I see you show the casting as a drawing. I would like to see the actual casting including at least 1/2” of rifling. This will show the lead in front of the case transitioning into the rifling. A lot of old black powder cartridge chambers look like your drawing but are either straight or tapered cases and have rather long tapered leads into the rifling. I bought a rifle a guy was having trouble with cases sticking in the chamber when shot and he couldn’t open the action without excessive force. He gave up on it and sold me the gun. I found out he took the step in the chamber casting as a short shoulder and guessed the neck length. The chamber had a long tapered lead which I have several black powder German guns with this configuration. The actual chambers neck is oversized to the bore.