J.P Sauer & Sauer Patent 78411 Drilling Info Please

[Karl]

I have a J.P. Sauer & Sohn hammerless drilling; I would appreciate information on the model and possible date of manufacture. It is 12x12/.38-55. The rifle barrel has Henry rifling. The barrels are 30” long. The shotgun barrels are fine Damascus and the rifle barrel fluid steel. The shotgun barrels are engraved, “Dreilaueufer-System J.P. Sauer & Sohn Suhl." The rib is engraved, “Find Damascus Barrels.” The grip cap appears to be horn. The red rubber butt plate is likely a replacement. The serial number is 52105. From the table in Jeff Stephens’ 2004 DGJ article, I infer it was made between 1893-1895. I’ve read Stephen’s article, “J.P. Sauer & Sohn’s Deutsch Reich Patent No. 78411,” in the DGJ Autumn 2003 issue. The patent number 78411 is engraved just in front of the trigger guard. However, my gun differs from those described in the article. It does not have a Greener crossbolt and the rifle barrel is fired with the front trigger. After firing the rifle barrel the front trigger can fire the right shot barrel. The rifle trigger pull is a crisp 1lb 4oz. The front shotgun trigger is just about 3 lbs. and the rear just over 5 lbs. According to Stephen’s 2003 article guns chambered for the .38-55 were distributed by Charles Daly. I’ve attached a few photos. Thanks for any information.

[mike ford]

Karl,
I don't have a reference for the patents. Larry Schuknecht at Dutchman Wood Works ( www.dutchmanwoodworks.com) might be able to help you with the patent. If Axel sees this, he may also be able to help. The fact that it has proof marks in the form of the 1891 proof law shows it was made after the beginning of 1893. The photo of the proof marks is not clear enough for me to see if the bore ( not groove or bullet) diameter is shown in gauge or millimeter measurement. If it is in gauge ( something like 91.83) without case length, then it would have been made before 1912. If the bore diameter is shown in mm (say 9.5) an has the case length( 55 or56mm) , it would have been made after 1911. The Suhl proof house didn't start dating them until the 1920s. I couldn't figure out from either the photos or your description whether the top lever opens the action, or selects the rifle barrel; or if the side lever opens the action or cocks the rifle barrel's hammer. None of the photos showed if there was a safety button on the top tang. If the side lever cocks the rifle hammer, I think the answer to your earlier question( about de-cocking the rifle) would be " hold the lever down, pull the trigger, then ease the lever up". Try it first unloaded and always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Mike

[Karl]

Mike, the patent is clearly explained in Stephen's article that I cited and as I stated that patent number is engraved on my gun. To clarify my question: The guns described in that article have a Greener cross bolt. Mine does not. The rear trigger fires the rifle barrel on the guns described in the article. The front trigger fires the rifle on my gun. Are these characteristics a known variant of guns made under that patent?
The side level cocks the rifle. Stephen's article stated how to de-cock as you described in your reply. The top lever opens the gun. There is a safety slide. I've attached a photo. Thanks for the prompt reply. If I can get in touch with Jeff Stephens, perhaps he can provide additional information.

[algmule]

Hello

It's a model XXIV (has the doll's head). Here's a good thread on another forum

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/vie...p?f=5&t=181705

xxiv.JPG
Image borrowed/nicked from Martin's answer on Shotgunworld forum. I have the catalogue as well but no functioning scanner.

Mike is correct. Bore diameter is marked 91/83 which is around .370.

EDIT: the list of JPS&S serial numbers I have place the Drilling in 1894-95 but I'd say the list is a rough guide. I'd say the D.R.P. sets manufacturing date after December 20, 1894. Patent was retroactively valid from November 3, 1893.

Another EDIT: the model may not have been an established model when your Drilling was manufactured.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Karl,
The safety doesn't show in your photo, but it does in Peter's catalog cut, so that answers the question.
Mike

[Karl]

Thanks Peter!! Compiling the history of the guns I collect is a significant part of my enjoyment! The gun is in excellent condition. The shot barrels pattern well and the rifle is very accurate. Now I wonder how common Henry rifling was in Sauer drillings? It shoots well with jacketed bullets. I may experiment with cast grooved and paper patched bullets. As an aside, I have an Alexander Henry .500 BPE double rifle and it's been a challenge getting it to regulate with paper patched bullets, but it regulates with jacketed bullets.

Thanks to both you and Mike for prompt and informative replies.

Herman

[sharps4590]

Karl, I'll happily defer to Mike and Peter regarding anything about the history of your drilling. The Henry rifling. I had an E.M. Reilly with Henry rifling also in 500 BPE, that the only way I could get it to reasonably regulate with BP was with paper patch bullets. With smokeless powder and either grease groove or jacketed bullets it was amazingly accurate, 2 inches or less at 50 yards.. After owning it for near 25 years I sold it and bought a Vierordt double that I got shooting and well regulated fairly easy when compared to the Reilly and BP.

After that experience I honestly will not consider purchasing a rifle if it has Henry rifling. No rifle has frustrated me as much as that Reilly and trying to get BP to shoot accurately AND regulate in it. I hope you have better results than me!!!

[Karl]

I've gotten excellent accuracy with duplex loads and 440 Woodleigh and 450 Barnes (hollow pointed to 440) in my Alex Henry. Henry rifling was renowned for its accuracy with paper patched bullets. Sherman Bell in a 1990 article, "White Smoke Double Rifle," in DGJ couldn't get his .500 BPE Alex Henry to regulate with black powder and cast bullets. He got excellent accuracy with Hawk 350 jacketed bullets and a duplex load. I wonder if the problem is the quality of modern black powder compared to that of 19th century gun powder when it was at its zenith in the late 19th century? The stuff has magical properties! I will continue my quest to develop a good paper patched black powder load this summer. I bought an original Alex Henry mold and will experiment with bullets cast from it. I'll also load some cast bullets in the .38-55 and see how they perform in the Sauer.