A "Garden Gun"

[EdinFlorida]

Picked this up today at the Pt. Charlotte (FL) show. It is a bit out of my line but it was "cute" so I succumbed.

It was represented as a "Garden Gun" of 9mm Flobert Rimfire shot and 6mm Flobert. I think I'll get some 9mm and see how it works.

I am attaching some pictures of marks. I'd appreciate help in understanding their meaning. Also, I have not been blle to find any marks indicating the manufacturer. Any insigts there would also be appreciated.

IMG_0023.JPG IMG_0024.JPG

IMG_0014.JPG

[mike ford]

EdinFlordia,
Note the proof mark for the 9mm RF barrel shows a crown G ( for solid projectile), even though it was expected to be used with shot. In theory, this ammo is still available ( through Midway?) At one time, there were fewer regulations for "Flobert" rifles, up to 9mm and this type proof made things easier for the owner. Unless I am mistaken in the way I read the proof mark, it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis in Mar. of 1947with ledger no.208. The likely reason for this date is that the area was in the Russian Zone and they allowed some gun manufacturing before the Allies did. I have a different type gun chambered for these same cartridges and use 22 cal. ammo in the 6mm barrel with complete satisfaction. I tried 22 Short CB caps, 22 Short, 22 Long, and 22 LR standard velocity. I expected the 22 LR to tip or tumble due to an expected slow rate of twist. In my case the bullets hit straight on, and left round holes in the target. Due to the nature of the expected use, I decided to shoot either CBs or Shorts with the 9mm shot in my gun. Yours may, very well, give different results.
Mike

[EdinFlorida]

Interesting, I would have thought considerably older.
It looks like the firing pin on the 9mm side is dead center, not RF. Is that possible?

[mike ford]

EdinFlorida,
If the 9mm firing pin strikes the cartridge in the center, it is not a rimfire, as reported. There also were 9mm centerfires and similar 38 centerfires. I was also surprised at what I read as the proof date, which is why I mentioned the possibility of misreading the date. Maybe you can confirm whether it is 347, 341, or something else. There were other markings in the same area I couldn't "make out", can you post a readable photo of it?
Mike

[EdinFlorida]

IMG_0031.JPG IMG_0028.JPG IMG_0029.JPG
Note the positions of the firing pins in the first picture. The 6mm pin is closest to the camera, the 9mm(?) is behind.
Sure looks center fire to me.

Rim dia. of the shot cartridge is ~.46" What could it be?

[mike ford]

That is a better photo of the proof marks. Now I read 118.35, instead of 8.35. and instead of crown G, it is a crown S. This makes a lot of difference. If it had been 8.35, the bore would have had to be marked in mm, which they didn't start until about 1911. The 118.35 is the bore diameter written in gauge measurement which works out to about .340" and this type measurement was used until about 1911. This means the gun couldn't have been made after 1911. The gun was proofed in July 1908 ( 7.08) in Zella Mehlis with 347 as the ledger number. The crown S means it was intended for shot. This revelation clears up a question I had about the 27 on the 6mm Flobert barrel. For a post 1911 gun, it didn't make sense, but a pre 1911 gun would have this barrel also marked in gauge measurement. The 27 must be 527 with the 5 too lightly struck to read. a 527 bore works out to 5.25 mm. This mark is often found on 22 RF guns, the 6mm designation notwithstanding. If you look at the breech face, with the barrels removed, there may be a mark made by the rims of ammo fired in the gun. The location of the firing pin relative to this mark will show if it is rim or center fire. Sorry for the previous misinformation.
Mike

[EdinFlorida]

Thank you Mike, that is excellent information.

Tell me, what is the Zella Mehlis stamp?

I am virtually certain that the larger barrel is centerfire. A .38 spl. cartridge seats nicely in the left barrel with the rim tahing yo the recess correctly. I shall remove the bullet and charge from a couple of .38's tomorrow and pop the primers, so to speak.

I would think that a modern .38 shot cartridge would work just fine. You have any experience in this area?

[EdinFlorida]

EdinFlordia,
<snip> Due to the nature of the expected use, I decided to shoot either CBs or Shorts with the 9mm shot in my gun.
Mike

I have a quantity of BB and CB caps and I use these (as well as Std. Vel shorts) early guns. Probably a bit too cautious but ...

[EdinFlorida]

I fired a primed .36spl and it worked fine.
Here is a picture of the cartridge seated
IMG_0033.JPG
The diameter of the rim in the firearm is ~.47. The diameter of the case itself is ~.43.

Were these guns chambered in .38 special?

[mike ford]

Ed,
I didn't see a Zella-Mehlis house mark, I knew it passed through there because it had the ledger number, and Suhl didn't number them.
It wouldn't have been chambered for 38 S&W Spec. There was a 9mm centerfire shot cartridge, and 380 long ( similar to 38 Colt, but a little shorter, and also with a .375-.379" heeled bullet) I don't know if it was available as a shot loading. Don't forget, this barrel is intended for shot( crown S proof). I believe there is a good possibility that it is chambered for a centerfire cartridge that was pretty popular at one time, the 9.1x40R. This cartridge, according to Cartridges of the World, has a head diameter of about .404" , rim diameter of .446" and case length 1.60". These diameters are smaller than the measurements you took from the rifle, but larger than 38 Spec/380/ or 38 Colt. A cartridge must be smaller than the chamber or it won't chamber ; but if it is too much smaller, it may rupture the case. The best thing is to make a chamber cast to obtain better dimensions, then decide which available case would be the best fit for hand loading for that particular gun. With the dimensions you gave, I am leaning toward making cases from 30-30 Win. by trimming to the length demanded by the chamber, and altering the rim diameter and maybe thickness to fit the rim recess. Note that COTW gives the 30-30 head diameter as .422", rim diameter as .506" and thickness as.063". The .375 Winchester diameters are a little smaller and may fit better, but are much less available than 30-30. As I recall, our technical advisor, Axel has a rifle chambered for 9.1x40 R, and he may be able to offer some help. Also the first president of the GGCA, John Laborde wrote an article about some of his combination guns( he called them "Fun Guns") and I believe he made shot cases for one of them from 220 Swift cases. As for my experience, it is pretty much limited to loading shot loads for 45 ACP revolver and Carpenter Bee loads with polishing media and 444 Marlin cases for a 410 21/2" Pistol. This wouldn't be of much help to you. In my opinion, you have a fun project for the summer.
Mike

[EdinFlorida]

It seems to me that just to try the thing I would no go far wrong with a .38 shot cartridge.

[mike ford]

Edinflorida,
It would be worth a try to see if the cases bulge too much or split, 38 special are cheap enough that losing some isn't a problem. Split cases, however ,can be a problem, if more than a few or if they leak gasses through the breach. A light load of Bullseye, a cardboard wad, rest of the case filled with #8-#10 shot with another cardboard wad crimped and sealed with Titebond or a commercial shot cup (if you can find some) might work. If a 357 case will chamber, it would hold more shot.
Mike

[mikev]

I have this guns twin. BE CAREFUL with the 38 shot. Mine fired one and split the case. The second shot blew the firing pin out and into my safety glasses. So be very careful. I know it was dumb to try it twice.

[mikev]

PS. These were commercially loaded aluminum case shotshells.

[mike ford]

EdinFlorida,
Mikev's experience was what I was afraid might happen. I "second" his advice to be careful.
Mike