A little OT, Vintage Puma hunting knife

[Axel E]

Saufaengerkid, the Waidblatt you posted was apparently made up as a pure presentation item. None of the pics in Frvert's Publishings Shows a sheat like your's, resembling in some way the contemporary RAD-Hauer sheath. The pics published by Frevert showed sheaths just like mine. Additionally, no pre-WW2 Picture known to me of the Waidblatt Shows the grips inlaid with the badge of the Deutsche Jägerschaft.
BTW, when I was a boy, I met Frevert myself. he signed my example of "Das Jagdliche Brauchtum" for me then. My hunting family then highly respected the man. I learned better by now, as I was a forester of comparable education and responsibility myself and learned a lot about the background of the ideas he wrote about: A lot of the "age old German hunting traditions" he propagated was simply invented by him himself, other was misinterpreted by him. As a professional forester he concentrated on the hunting side job, just part of a forester's duties. He was a man who was a true servant of top Nazi Hermann Göring, his master in Rominten and elsewhere. His conduct as head warden of the Bielowiez forest in then Poland, then last home range of the European Wisent, a close relative to your buffalo/Bison, made him a war criminal. He was a man who would walk over corpses to achieve his goals. I don't hold him in high respect any more, neither as a professional nor a human. Granted, he had some good ideas regarding deer management too, mostly overlooked by my customers. These I use sometimes too. Quoting "Frevert" sometimes does wonders, even today!

[Saufaengerkid]

Axel E

I'm no expert either, I just collect F Dula Waidblatts whenever I can find them, I've been lucky enough to find 10 really decent examples over the years, two of them do not have the DRGM stamped on the blade and both of these have different types of scabbard, I am only assuming myself that these were a couple of the earliest and definitely pre-patent(Oct 1936), one was given by Frevert to Fritz Kaufmann, the 1st Kreis Jägermeister of Melsungen in 1935, he was a friend of Frevert at that time and he had responsibility for "Jagdhundewesen" (hunting dog laws????) so was obviously close to Frevert.

I do have another with the standard scabbard that was awarded by Frevert in his capacity of Leader of the Bloodhound association.

Regards

Gary

[Axel E]

I do have another with the standard scabbard that was awarded by Frevert in his capacity of Leader of the Bloodhound association.

Now I really need your email address! Sorry, but the prize Waidblatt was not given by Frevert himself, though he was certainly present. The inscription says: It was given as the handler's prize by the section for Bayrische Gebirgs-Schweisshunde (BGS) to a successful handler of a BGS. "Führerpreis" here has nothing to do with the "Führer Adolf Hitler", but means "Hundeführer" = dog handler. I found the official report (with some photos) of that event in the "Hirschmannchronik". The union trial 1937 took place in the Solling forests near Neuhaus, Nether Saxony. The president of the international union then was a Director Grafinger, Austria. Head for the Hanoverian Bloodhounds (HS) was Forstmeister Oskar Steinhoff , Winnefeld, for the Bavarian Mountain Schweisshund (BGS) Ernst Runge. Frevert was there only as one of the 19 judges/referees/scorers (don't know the correct English designation) in judges group II. So most likely Runge gave the Waidblatt to the successful dog owner/handler. The names of the owners/handlers are not mentioned, but only one BGS got a prize. The name of that hound was "Hex vom Osthoff".

[mike ford]

Axel,
You continue to astound me with your ability to discover these things.
Mike

[rtenenbown]

I see similarities of the Waldblatt design in the Puma White Hunter model.
Can any of those with more knowledge than myself, speak to the design progression of the White Hunter?
Thank you

[Axel E]

I see similarities of the Waldblatt design in the Puma White Hunter model.
Can any of those with more knowledge than myself, speak to the design progression of the White Hunter?
Thank you

It is a combination of design progression, company relations ad advertising. I have to delve into the Frevert-Dula-Puma history a bit. Soon after the start of production Frevert and Dula had the idea to give the Nicker = skinning/gutting knife of the Waidbesteck the same, distinctive blade outline protected with the DRGM: wider near the about 90 degree point. Dula's production capacities did not meet demand from the start. Unsuccessful in Solingen, the German cutlery capital, Dula had the knifes made by a company in Neustadt on Saale, E. Dittert. The sheaths were bought in from the saddlery Hruby in Hachenburg. After 6 years, 1942, the DRGM protection of the design expired. So everybody was free to copy the design, but WW2 was going on. After 1945 most of these unusual, big and decorative knives were surrendered and "liberated". Many reside now in Saufaengerkid's collection. After 1950 Germans were allowed to hunt again and a new demand for Waidblatts set in. ("Waidblatt" = the big knife only, "Waidbesteck" = the set of Waidblatt, Nicker and perhaps an awl contained in one sheath) Now Solingen firms jumped in and offered close copies of the original design: First the Carl Eickhorn company, Solingen, jumped in and offered close copies. The early Eickhorns came in metal clad sheaths, very similar to the one on the presentation Waidblatt shown above. In 1976 Eickhorn was no more, the tooling bought up by Kuno Ritter, "Hubertus" cutlery company, who continued to offer the "Hubertus Waidblatt".
About the same time like Eickhorn the PUMA-Werke, Lauterjung & Co, Solingen, started to offer uninscribed copies. Apparently they had an arrangement with Frevert, as by 1956 PUMA had protected the words "Forstmeister", "Frevert" and "FREVERT" as cutlery trademarks.
As Frevert was still regarded as the foremost hunting expert by German hunters then, Puma (and Frevert?) decided to capitalize on the name. Puma offered a whole series of hunting knives, all with the distinctive "Frevert" blade shape and etched on the blade "nach Forstmeister Frevert". There was not only the "Waidblatt" and the "Nicker zum Waidbesteck", but also a larger "Försternicker", a "Hochwildnicker", and some folders advertized as Frevert design. Up to the 1990s Puma used the "Nach Forstmeister Frevert", later "nach Oberforstmeister Frevert", inscription on knives approved by him until his death in 1962. From the 1990s they left it off because Frevert's Nazi crimes came to light and his oldfashioned ideas about hunting were not as respected any more. By then the distinctive "Frevert" blade shape itself had become something like a Puma trademark itself. So that shape was used on their "White Hunter" and it's variants, the "Automesser", "pilot survival knife", "Alpine Outdoor" and so on. For some time the had a model "Rüdemann" = bloodhound handler too, shaped similar to the Waidblatt, but im size about halfway in between Waidblatt and White Hunter.

[Axel E]

one was given by Frevert to Fritz Kaufmann, the 1st Kreis Jägermeister of Melsungen in 1935, he was a friend of Frevert at that time and he had responsibility for "Jagdhundewesen" (hunting dog laws????) so was obviously close to Frevert.

In the 1936/37 "Jahrbuch der Deutschen Jägerschaft" Fritz Kaufmann's primary profession is listed as "Staatsrevierförster", some ranks below Frevert's "Forstmeister". As Kreisjägermeister he was only responsible for hunting dog affairs in his own district, here the district Melsungen. (I ought to know, as I am a Kreisjägermeister myself). Frevert's stomping grounds were outside by a good distance from the district Melsungen, in the district Battenberg. So the Frevert/Kaufmann friendship was probably not based on official relations, but of earlier origin, about like the one to Fritz Schwieder.

[m-4]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...-Waidmannsheil

Link from the Blade Forum discussing Waidblatts & their makers
Wilhelm Weltersbach (Weidmannsheil brand) concentrated post WW II and during the 1950s on pocket knives while Kuno Ritter (Hubertus) had the focus on fixed bladed knives and both cutlers traded knives for several years.




m-4

[Axel E]

[QUOTE]Link from the Blade Forum discussing Waidblatts & their makers[QUOTE]
As a non member, I cannot log in. As I wrote, the Puma knives "Nach Forstmeister Frevert" were very popular during the 1950s - 70s, albeit expensive.The DRGM design protection had ended in 1942. So many more cutlery companies, both in west as well as in east Germany, copied the basic design, just sufficiently different to avoid open plagiarism. Even today you can buy cheap knives similar to Frevert's basic blade design, made in China, Pakistan or elsewhere. Even Puma today has most of "their" knifes made in Spain. Just have a look into German Ebay. Some examples:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/The-Bone-Edge...item3a9e55633b
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rough-Rider-B...item462ef2aaaa
http://www.ebay.de/itm/JC54-Messerkl...item4177dbe730
http://www.ebay.de/itm/31929-Jagdmes...item2ed22a2554
http://www.ebay.de/itm/FOX-Bowie-Jag...item2edbfeb61a
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Linder-White-...item3f1c0fbf77
Of course you will find many Puma knives there, but they are about ten times these prices.

[m-4]

Sorry, did not realise the link would not open for non members, here is a copy & paste

Some of the information are definitively wrong. It is correct that Friedrich Carl Lippert designed a Waidblatt. Anyway he never ”opposed finishing shot game and suggested a return to the use for this purpose hunting knife” . He did not file for a patent of his invention but applied for utility rights ( DRGM) which expired already in 1939. Lippert’s Waidblatt design does not at all show up any reference to the hunting cutlass (Hirschfaenger ). This link does illustrate the Lippert knife in question:



Concerning the Weidmannsheil brand Waidblatt (besides the term/name) there is no relationship to Carl Lippert’s invention. It is the Frevert 1936 design Waidblatt, being crafted when Frevert’s protection rights had expired end of WW II and his previous partner, a cutler from Marburg/Germany, passed on making such knives any more.
This caused Kuno Ritter (Hubertus brand) in partnership with Waffenfabrik Carl Eickhorn to craft the Frevert pattern. This link does show a Kuno Ritter sales catalog illustration from the early 1950s:


Wilhelm Weltersbach (Weidmannsheil brand) concentrated post WW II and during the 1950s on pocket knives while Kuno Ritter (Hubertus) had the focus on fixed bladed knives and both cutlers traded knives for several years.

A third Waidblatt design was introduced aside the Frevert and the Lippert pattern during WW II: it is the Carl Scholz Waidblatt. This illustration is showing a rare de luxe presentation piece. The standard ones came with non decorated, simple fittings and some even had a flat tang hadle with wooden slabs:

[rtenenbown]

Thanks, I knew some of the "non-experts" would show up with background information to respond to my question.
I wonder how much detail an expert would come up with?
Very interesting thread.

[Axel E]

Carl Scholz, 1889 – 1959, was a civil engineer, specialised in cars and engines. As in WW1 he served as a technician at the "Jagdgeschwader Richthofen", he certainly knew the young commander and fighter ace Hermann Goering. In 1949 Scholz applied for a patent to his own ideas on an "Universal Waidblatt". You may find the patent here:

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNe...ge=1&xxxfull=1

Scholz intended his Waidblatt to be usable not only for the coup de grace, but as gutting knife, cleaver and even a hammer too. Scholz had his knifes made by the knifemaker Helmut Neumann, Berlin – Neukölln. The knifes were made to order only, one at a time. So they all differ slightly in dimensions, decoration and finish. Less than 100 examples were made. Production ended at the death of Carl Scholz in 1959.
Here is again my example, inherited too, well used and slightly modified:

[Saufaengerkid]

Axel E

I will have to try and get my head around all this information, I had presumed that Frevert was the leader of the BGS at that time and thought that he had awarded the Dula, I didn't think it was anything to do with AH, your translation of the inscription is so much better than mine, my German is not the greatest but I can usually work out roughly what is being said. My friend in Germany sent me a couple of pages from a book that listed the owner as Wichard von Alvensleben aus Tankow, he informed me that the first prize in this competition was a boar spear and the 2nd prize was the Dula.?.

Gary

My E-Mail

saufaengerkid@ntlworld.com

[Saufaengerkid]

Axel E

In the 1935-36 DJ Jahrbuch Herr Kaufmann is listed under the Gaujagdrat f.d. jagdhundwesen, my friend in Germany is in contact with the grandson of Fritz Kaufmann and was tutored by Fritz Kaufmann's son, the information given to him from the family was that the Dula was given to Fritz Kaufmann by Frevert. This is the other early Dula I have without the DRGM on the blade.

Regards

Gary

[Axel E]

First, the "Kaufmann" dedication: It translates to "given by the hunters association/organisation of the district Melsungen to their first Kreisjägermeister" = then something like president of the district organisation. The honorary job and title "Kreisjägermeister was only introduced with the 1934 hunting law. Perhaps given to Kaufmann on his retirement from the honorary job of district boss. No direct connection to Frevert visible here.
Second: There are two distinct races of German bloodhounds (used for tracking down wounded game). The "Hannoversche Schweisshund" = Hanoverian bloodhound, in short HS, organized in the "Verein Hirschmann", under Nazi rule "Fachgruppe für Hannoversche Schweisshunde". Frevert was a dyed in the wool HS man from his start to death while tracking down a wounded red deer doe with his HS. During the 1950s he was president of "Verein Hirschmann". He would not been cought dead with a BGS!
Then there is the race "Bayrische Gebirgs-Schweisshunde", short BGS, organised in the "Verein für BGS", Nazi times "Fachschaft für BGS".
Though both clubs are organised in the international Union, they are strictly separate, even rivalling. As the Waidblatt was given to their best dog handler by the BGS organisation, it was certainly not given to a HS handler.
I did not know the report you posted. The "Hirschmannchronik" gives only the names and race of the best dogs, not the names of the owner (B) or handler (F) of the dogs. Your report gives the names of the owner (B) and Führer (F), but not the race. "BuF" means the owner handled his dog himself. So a combination of both reports reveals the winning man. Of the 5 hounds mentioned in both reports, 4 were HS, only "Hex vom Osthoff" was a BGS. So IMHO this Waidblatt was most likely given to Forstadjunkt (wannabe forester) Greimel, then Rottenmann in Styria, Austria, owner and Führer of "Hex", the best BGS. If your Information were correct and the Saufeder was given by the Fachschaft HS and the Waidblatt for the second best dog handler by the Fachschaft BGS, then not the owner W.von Alvensleben, but the Führer, Alvensleben's forester Herzog, would have got it.