A little OT, Vintage Puma hunting knife

[kcordell]

Sorry for posting something off the topic of firearms but I was hoping someone here may be familiar with this knife. I recently acquired it from a older individual offloading his knife collection and thought it would go well with my German guns. I can find almost no information on this aside from the fact that is was made before they put serial numbers on them. Also, the smaller knife is an Eickhorn not Puma. Does anyone have any data they can share? Its a great knife. I immediately was drawn to it when I saw it.

[mike ford]

kcordell,
The large knife is known as a Waideblatt( I believe intended to chop through the pelvic joint of larger animals), the smaller one is a Jagtknicker(?)(used for gutting and for a fangknick{?}if necessary[kill a wounded Reh by severing the spinal chord just under the head]). Puma is a very good make, a folding Puma Game Warden has been my very favorite hunting knife since 1971. I believe some, if not all, Pumas are now made in China, but I expect they exercise good quality control over the Chinese. Axel, having better training, can speak better about this.
Mike

[ellenbr]

Ford is correct and I think that Puma's machinery was moved to to a couple locations. The Chinese cannot replicate that type quality. Seems it looks similar to Scherping's knife set. M-4 should be along to compare/contrast. Very nice - Puma Waidblatt - Bestell - Nr. 3588

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...-hunting-knife

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[m-4]

Extracted from previous post is some info gathered while searching for info on the "Lippertsche Waidblatt" 1936 patent retailed by Heinrich Scherpings shop, & the replics's created by Willi Ulrich of Solingen in 2001, note comments on the blade design. The PUMA is also a very fine Knife that has been held in high esteem for quite some time.


He was featured in Time magazine August 20/27 2001 “Why Europes craftsmen are still the best” with a story on him named “The daily grind German Sword Grinder Willi Ulrich” This special hunting knife was designed by by renowned artist & hunter F. K. Lippert and he registered the patent application in 1936 for the Lippertsches Waidblatt. In 2001 Willi Ulrich decided to revive this hunting collection of knives & tools into a special production of 200 Replica’s as only about 12 originals bore Scherpings name and were sold from his shop & only a handful of originals have been viewed. This replica was delivered in precise detail, each presentation box set is uniquely numbered and contains the “Lippertsche Waidblatt” & a smaller skinning knife & a bone marrow awl/sharpening steel, all contained in a fitted leather sheath. We have been able to obtain the advertisement from “Wild und Hund” hunting magazine 1937 as well as the artists concept drawing & the patent application provided with the Ulrich set. Another article penned by author Richard Schmeider titled “The Lipper Chechen Waidblatt, Rare and sought after” The Waidblatt to Upper Forest Master Walter Frevert is the Classic among Blank hunting weapons. The Frederick Karl Lippert, however, know the least, but it had real benefits in practical use for hunting.
“In October 1936 the painter and hunter Friedrich Karl Lippert the Patent Office Berlin a very special Waidblatt, which is the usual and widespread Frvertschen Waidblatt for interception of pigs was superior and much easier for the firm Sauschwarte penetrated. With the double curvature of the sharpened blade back in place (blade tip) Lippert wanted to ensurethat the blade not only the penetration into the wild body but alsothe withdrawal of blood by separation and thus a greater sweat loss vewirkte. Furthermore Lippertschen Waidblatt fell when the finger at the artistic in the form of a wolf angel was designed. The leaf blades had a length of 230 millimeters, was at the head are 38 mm and a maximum at the place from 42 to 44 mm wide. His back was 5 mm thickness-ter, in its center, on the other hand, it was a massive 6.5 mm thick.
Enthusiastic supporters: Upper forrest FrieB
The Lipper Tschechen sheet was up to almost half of his double-blade length so that the blade on the interception of wild game was ideally suited. Upper Forest master Rudolf Friess had once in his Saujagden in the Sessart such Lipper Tsches Waidblat in use and was excited. FrieB mistaken, however, when he saw a reproduction of the althannover’s Couteaus held. When the latter was merely a short deer catcher with a straight blade. Elaborate handmade to order. Lippert design, however, never reached the popularity level of Frevertschen Waidblatts. The vinous specimens that used by the company in Hannover, Heinrich Scherping only available to order in an exclusive handicraft were made are now difficult to find and more popular collection items”
More from the Ulrich documentation
Why is the Lippertsche Waidblatt going to be reproduced?
The precision of a drawn barrel is unique.
Following this the developed steel blade, has a blade length of approximately 23-25 cm, has a width of 5 cm, the back strength is 5mm, is double edged with a rounded point and so preventing the piercing of ribs and periosium, in addition to the thrust into soft organs (heart/lungs) The heart does not need to be penetrated, as death is caused by air in the thoraxic cavity, causing imminent and painless.
These are quotations from the book of F. Karl Lippert which appeared in 1954
“Vom SchuB an” Osterwald Verlag Hannover/Germany
The for and against if interception with the Waidblatt was for the maker of “Lippert Waidblatt” unequivocal.
Some comments from an area hunter
Therefore this matter of killing a wounded animal has many supporters, so the “Lippertsche Waidblatt” is even today still actual. The coup de grace from the barrel is quite in frequent, therefore fast cold steel is a necessity. For this use the LippertscheWaidblatt , developed by F.K. Lippert, is unequalled by causing air embolisum instantly, even through thick Boar skin, as recommended by well known Forestry Commissioneer Rudolf Fries in the 50s, who’s experience in the past was gathered by numerous Boar hunts.
With the present increase of wild Boar hunting, the “Lippertsche Waidblatt” is the best cold steel weapon. October 2001 Richard Schneider

[mike ford]

The translation shown above is very strained and hard to read, in English.In my frequently ignored opinion, this is caused by a "machine" translation from German to English, when much of the German is not "German", but rather "Waidmannssprache".Some examples are "sweat loss", I guess the German was "schweiss",which in normal German is sweat, but in Waidmannssprache is blood after it leaves the body. The term "wild body" was also confusing. "Wild"means game or animal, so it should be "animal body".The term "deer catcher", I believe came from "Hirschfaenger",which is a short hunting sword,used to dispatch wounded Red Deer.Would it be possible for one of our German hunter members to give a better translation?
Mike

[kcordell]

Folks, great information and many thanks for contributing. Does anyone know when Puma began making these knives? The one pictured has an Eickhorn (small knife). I presume the Puma was lost or broken and replaced with the Eickhorn? Both are high quality knives.

[m-4]

kcordell,
I believe that Eickhorn is the manufacturer of your small knife (knicker?), & Mike, you are correct about the strained translation as much of the info came from different sources in different languages but most From Willi Ulrich from Solingen. A package of documentation was received when I purchased the replica set from Willi and the original pictured one in the link is one that I purchased later & have since had Willi build a new sheath, nicker, & bone marrow awl/sharpening steel as originally sold with. The original sheath was missing the small tools & pouch for them. Much conversation surrounds these special knives on the blade forums.

[Axel E]

This "Waidbesteck", a combination of "Waidblatt" (big knife) and "Nicker" (small knife for field dressing, outdoor lunch, rarely for "necking" roe deer) serves the same purpose as Lippert's design, but is of different origin. There were three articles once in the DWJ by the noted German sword expert Gerhard Seifert on the three 20th century Waidblatt designs by Frevert, Lippert and Scholz. As I have these articles scanned in (German, of course), I may email them if you pm your address.
The Waidblatt here was designed by Forstmeister (Chief Forester) Walter Frevert (1897 - 1962) about 1935. At that time he was head of the Forstamt (forest district) Battenberg (as a noble family name translated to "Mountbatton" in WW1) on Eder river. He was already a well known expert on hunting, especially red deer, and had published some books, f.i. "Die gerechte Führung des Hannoverschen Schweisshundes" (The Right Handling of the Hanoverian Bloodhound) and "Das Jagdliche Brauchtum" (Hunting Traditions). In late 1936 Hermann Goering appointed the known expert as head of the vast forest of the Rominter Heide in East Prussia, now devided between Poland and Russia. Rominten was a favourite hunting ground of the Prussian dukes, later kings, the Kaisers and, of course, of the Reichsjägermeister. Frevert ran these hunting grounds, famous for the biggest red deer in then Germany, until late 1944 when the Red Army took over.
Frevert had the knifes made to his design by the cutlers and swordsmiths F.Dula, Hersfeld and Marburg, est. 1762. The first dozen prototypes Frevert gave to friends and noted bloodhound handlers. My own Waidbesteck is one of these first ones, evidenced by the slim blade of the Nicker. It is marked "F.Dula" and DRGM (protected design). I inherited it from my grandfather. together with the Scholz' Waidblatt on the right.



The small shop of F.Dula could never meet demand. Post WW2, in 1950, W.Frevert met a short-lived arrangement with the renowned Solingen cutlery Carl Eickhorn (trademark a squirrel = Eichhorn in German), who made these knifes close to Frevert's design until they folded in 1976. Their tooling was taken over by "Hubertus" cutlery works Kuno Ritter, Solingen, who continued to make Eickhorn-shaped Waidbestecke for some years.
In 1953 Frevert made a new arrangement with Puma - Werk, Lauterjung & Sohn, Solingen. From then on Puma had the sole right to use "Forstmeister Walter Frevert" as a trademark. They marketed not only Waidblatt and Nicker, but many more knives designed by or approved by Frevert. kcordell's Waidblatt is apparently of early, 1950s to 70s, Puma make, but the Nicker was replaced by a Eickhorn one. You may still buy a Puma "Waidbesteck nach Oberforstmeister Frevert" in a presentation case for a mere Euro 940.- about US$ 1222.-,
http://www.pumaknives.de/dispitem_12...item_no=513588
As you may imagine it is rarely seen today in the hands of practical hunters who really need a big knife. Myself, I applied the coup de grace several times with a knife, mostly on wild boar covered by dogs, but I use cheaper to replace big knifes. I can assure you: the longest knife seems to shrink markedly in your hand if you stand in front of an angry boar.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks for the very interesting information. I would be hard pressed to get closer than the length of a Saufeder to a wounded boar (better pistol shot range),you have guts. BTY I did witness a friend dispatching a reh with his knife,severing the spinal chord. His dog had taken one down that had a nasty, festering wound, seemingly from a meeting with an automobile. His revier had a Bundesstrasse ,Autobahn, and Eisenbahn running through it. He lost about 10% of his abschuss plan to these every year.
Mike

[Axel E]

1. Both Lippert's and Scholz' Waidblatt designs are almost forgotten, Frevert's design now the only one known to most hunters. Some time ago I met a hunter and knifemaker who showed me his idea of "the ideal hunting knife". He was not aware of the fact that he had merely reinvented Scholz' Waidblatt, he had never heard the name before. Though Lippert's Waidblatt is forgotten too, I will try to beat the machine in translating. One of the more serious errors the machine made: the verb "abfangen", by word origin "to catch off", common dictionary use "to intercept" like as in "Abfangjaeger" = "interceptor fighter", but in hunter's use "to apply the coup de grace with cold steel"


He (W.Ulrich) was featured in Time magazine August 20/27 2001 “Why Europe's craftsmen are still the best” with a story on him named “The working German cutler Willi Ulrich” This special hunting knife was designed by by renowned artist & hunter F. K. Lippert ,who registered the patent application in 1936 for the Lippert's Waidblatt. In 2001 Willi Ulrich decided to revive this hunting equipment of knives & tools with a special production of 200 Replica’s as only about 12 originals marked with Scherpings name as they were sold from Scherping's shop. Only a handful of originals have been seen. These reproductions were executed in precise detail, each presentation box set is uniquely numbered and contains the “Lippertsche Waidblatt”, a smaller skinning knife and a bone marrow awl/sharpening steel, all contained in a fitted leather sheath. We have been able to obtain the advertisement from “Wild und Hund” hunting magazine 1937 as well as the artists concept drawing & the patent application provided with the Ulrich set. Another article penned by author Richard Schmeider titled “The Lippertsche Waidblatt, Rare and sought after” The Waidblatt designed by Oberforstmeister Walter Frevert is the classic among cold steel hunting weapons. Few people know Friedrich Karl Lippert's however, but it had real benefits in practical use for hunting.
“In October 1936 the painter and hunter Friedrich Karl Lippert submitted to the Patent Office in Berlin a very special Waidblatt, which is meant to be superior to the usual Frevert's Waidblatt for applying the coup de grace to wild boar as it was better suited to easily penetrate the tough skin. With the double curvature of the sharpened back of the blade point Lippert wanted to ensure that the blade not only penetrates into the body but also the cutting of blood vessels on withdrawal and thus effecting a greater blood loss . Furthermore Lippert's Waidblatt was designed by an artist who designed the handguard shaped like a wolf hook, a mediaval trapping tool and heraldic symbol of Hanoverian hunters and foresters. (Unfortunately the artist gone wild put the handguard on wrong way.AE) The blade had a length of 230 millimeters, 38 mm wide at the handle and from 42 to 44 mm wide near the point. The blade back was 5 mm thick at the rear, at it's center, on the other hand, it was a massive 6.5 mm thick.
Enthusiastic supporters: Forstmeister Friess, a known hunting scribe too: Lippert's blade was sharpened at the back up to almost half of it's length so that the blade for the coup de grace on wild game. Oberforstmeister Rudolf Friess had once in his boar hunts in the Spessart forests such a Lippert's Waidblatt in use and was excited. Friess was mistaken, however, when he saw it as a reproduction of the Old-Hanoverian "Couteaux de Chasse" (The latter was merely a short "Hirschfänger", hanger in English, with a stout straight blade AE). As it was handmade to order. Lippert's design, however, never reached the popularity level of Frevert's Waidblatt. The rare specimens that were available through the Heinrich Scherping gunmaker in Hannover, only available made to order as an exclusive custom job are now difficult to find and most sought after collector's items”
More from the Ulrich documentation
Why is Lippert's Waidblatt going to be reproduced?
The precision of a rifled barrel is unique.
Following this the sophisticated steel blade with a blade length of approximately 23-25 cm, has a width of 5 cm, the back thickness is 5mm, it is double edged with a rounded point to prevent to catch on ribs and hard tissue, to penetrate into soft organs (heart/lungs) The heart does not need to be penetrated, as death is caused by air in the ribcage cavity, causing the lungs to collapse, resulting in imminent and painless death.
These are quotations from the book of F. Karl Lippert which appeared in 1954
“Vom Schuss an” = After the Shot, Osterwald Verlag Hannover/Germany
The pro and contra of the coup de grace with the Waidblatt was for the designer of “Lippert's Waidblatt” not arguable.
Some comments from a contemporary hunter
As this way of killing a wounded animal has many supporters, the “Lippert's Waidblatt” is even today still actual. The coup de grace by shooting is often impossible (because of danger to nearby dogs or even humans. AE), therefore fast cold steel is a necessity. For this use the Lippertsche Waidblatt , developed by F.K. Lippert, is unequalled by causing air embolism instantly, even through thick Boar skin, as recommended by well known Forestry Commissioneer Rudolf Fries in the 50s, who’s experience in the past was gathered by numerous boar hunts.
With the present increase of wild boar hunting, the “Lippertsche Waidblatt” is the best cold steel weapon. October 2001 by Richard Schneider.

[Saufaengerkid]

Axel E
This is my first post on this forum, I do have a number of F Dula Waidblatts 10 of them in fact and a couple of original Lippertsche Waidblatt, I've read this thread a few times and I'd like to ask about "the first dozen prototypes" of the F Dula knives, whilst I will concur your F Dula is of an early production run can you explain why it is one of the twelve prototypes, it does have the earlier trait of the narrow skinning knife blade but I have a number like that and was not aware that that was the only trait that explains the initial production run. As far as I was aware in the earliest production run the blades were not marked with the DRGM, I'm not sure if yours is or isn't and the scabbards are not the same as the type you show, the lack of DRGM would indicate manufacture before the patent of Oct 1936. I do agree that Frevert probably gifted a number of early pieces to his friends and I know for a fact that he gave at least one to a fellow member of his Jagdkreis as I own that piece along with another presented piece though I do not know who or what it was given for, I'm still investigating that.
If you could expand on this prototype statement I would much appreciate the new information. Here is a few pictures of an initial production run Dula.

Gary

[m-4]

Gary,
Please provide us with some pic's of your couple of original Lippertsche Waidblatts!! as originals are rarely seen! What is an Original Lippertsche worth these days?
thanks
m-4

[Saufaengerkid]

m-4
I've taken these quickly so the quality isn't great but it'll give you an idea, the piece in the display case is complete with both the skinner and marrow awl, the other piece is not in great condition and the blade has been cleaned severely, it's also missing both the skinner and awl.
As far as value, I'm not sure but I should think a complete set would go for $4K or maybe a little more. The other piece perhaps $1K.

GaryP1018299.jpgP1018300.jpgP1018301.jpgP1018302.jpgP1018303.jpg

[m-4]

Gary,
Thanks! I have seen pic's of your knife in the case but not the other one. I think I have seen a total 5 originals now. I didn't think I would ever find one to go with my collection of Heinrich Scherping guns so I bought one of the last replica sets from Willi Ulrich, Then less than a year later I aqquired an original!



m-4

[Axel E]

First, I am far from being an expert on edged weapons. In fact, my own F.Dula Waidblatt is the only one I have ever seen. I inherited it from my grandfather, who in turn got it from a friend, F. Schwieder. All I know about it is from old family tales and from an article by the late, edged weapons expert Gerhard Seifert "Das Frevertsche Waidblatt" in DWJ 7/1985. (if you don't know this, I can send scans if you send your email address by pm). Schwieder was a close friend of Walter Frevert since WW1. He was given this Waidblatt by Frevert himself in the 1930s. In the 1950s he served as secretary of the "Verein Hirschmann" and the the ISHV (international union for Hanoverian bloodhounds) under Frevert's presidency. When Schwieder was in troubles about 1960, he gave the Waidblatt to my grandfather. It is indeed DRGM marked. From the Frevert – Schwieder – Eisfeld – myself tradition and Seifert's "history" I assumed it to be one of the early ones given by Frevert to his friends, but I may be wrong. According to Seifert's article most of the pre-1945 were "liberated" by allied personnel as hunting knifes with fixed blades more than 7 cm = 2.75" long were regarded as dangerous weapons and had to be surrendered.