Imman Meffert Target Pistol

[EdinFlorida]

Bought this yesterday at the Ft. Meyers show here in Fla. (which I heartily recommend). The bore is pristine. Wood is excellent with a few dings. Front sight is broken. I wonder if such things are available or whether it needs to be repaired.

The barrel has Meffert's name yet in the book "Alte Scheibenwaffen" on page 100 is an identical (to my eye) pistol. The book does not mention the maker, nor does it provide information on the designer (Franz Neumann). n.b there is no "Made in Germany" on my pistol.

Am I to assume that Meffert licensed the design? Did they make the one in the book and was the lack of mention an oversight? Was there some phantom maker that sold finished pistols to other makers who put their names on them?

Thoughts would be appreciated.


IMG_9796.JPG

IMG_9795.JPG
IMG_9798.JPG

[Axel E]

This pistol is a model ?Zentrum? made by Franz Neumann (1878 ? 1946), Roschstrasse 7, Suhl. Neumann had protected this design by DRGM 582718 in 1914. He offered these pistols up to WW2.
Meffert bought in this pistol from Neumann for retail to a customer who demanded such a pistol. There is a sentence German gunmakers never used: ?Sorry, no, we don?t make such a thing. You have to walk down the street to our competitor. He makes the guns you are asking for.? Instead, they wold happily accept such an order, buy in the gun from the other gunmaker, engrave it with their own address and sell it at a small profit to their customer.
Reread pages 98, 100 and 101 of Alte Scheibenwaffen Volume 3 as well as page 398 of Volume 2.

[EdinFlorida]

Interesting. Thank you.

[EdinFlorida]

What does the Neumann makers mark look like?
If this was a common practice then there must have been a relationship between Meffert and Neumann since there is no mention of Nuemann on the barrel or receiver.
Are you saying that this was common practice?

Very cooperative, sounds a bit like medieval towns where the product (swords or armor or whatever) was the product of a town more so than that of individuals. Not the same, a bit like.

[Axel E]

What does the Neumann makers mark look like?
If this was a common practice then there must have been a relationship between Meffert and Neumann since there is no mention of Nuemann on the barrel or receiver.
Are you saying that this was common practice?.

I don?t know how Neumann marked his guns. Did you take the foreend off the barrel? On the underside of the barrel you may find proofmarks and,if post-1923, the proof date and perhaps tiny marks of the real gunmaker and the barrelmaker too. Look at the front of the receiver too.
Yes, making unmarked on the outside guns for retail by others was common practice in the European guntrade. For instance all the Ho??and & Holland Dominion Grade guns were made for H&H by Pople & Sons, Birmingham. Or, all the famous prewar Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, Hochleistungsbuechsen in 7x64 or 9.3x64 have a small esha mark hidden under the barrel or under the floorplate release lever, as they were all made by Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, and have S&H serial numbers. Or see the many Noname drillings and rifles with a blank space on the barrel instead of an address. These are usually called Guild Guns by unknowing Americans. But they were made by reputable Suhl or Zella ? Mehlis gunmakers for the trade, intended to be sold by other gunmakers or country gunshops. Quite often such retailers did not bother engraving their own address on the gun. So such guns remained nameless. The name you see on the outside of a German gun, be it a wholesaler or a country gunshop, is most often not the real maker. Even BIG Name gunmakers bought in guns from the real gunmakers in Suhl or Z-M.

[EdinFlorida]

So this
58-Single Shot Pistol-27446-2.jpg



far from being a Fluckiger
IMG_0644smaller.jpg


is in reality a Weber??

Fascinating.

[EdinFlorida]

I don?t know how Neumann marked his guns. Did you take the foreend off the barrel? On the underside of the barrel you may find proofmarks and,if post-1923, the proof date and perhaps tiny marks of the real gunmaker and the barrelmaker too. Look at the front of the receiver too.
Yes, making unmarked on the outside guns for retail by others was common practice in the European guntrade. For instance all the Ho??and & Holland Dominion Grade guns were made for H&H by Pople & Sons, Birmingham. Or, all the famous prewar Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, Hochleistungsbuechsen in 7x64 or 9.3x64 have a small esha mark hidden under the barrel or under the floorplate release lever, as they were all made by Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, and have S&H serial numbers. Or see the many Noname drillings and rifles with a blank space on the barrel instead of an address. These are usually called Guild Guns by unknowing Americans. But they were made by reputable Suhl or Zella ? Mehlis gunmakers for the trade, intended to be sold by other gunmakers or country gunshops. Quite often such retailers did not bother engraving their own address on the gun. So such guns remained nameless. The name you see on the outside of a German gun, be it a wholesaler or a country gunshop, is most often not the real maker. Even BIG Name gunmakers bought in guns from the real gunmakers in Suhl or Z-M.

there is something nerve wracking about removing the fore ends from these critters. Anyway, I did and guess what?


image_5268.jpg


Something else of interest ...
The screw that holds the fore end and trigger group in place ...
IMG_9806.JPG
Beveled to follow the contour of the trigger guard.
Very cool.

[EdinFlorida]

Snapshot@2020_1124_101233.jpg This mark is on the barrel and the block. Can anyone identify it?

[mike ford]

EdinFlorida,
With regard to your discovering the Neumann logo. When asking for info regarding any German gun, pistol or long gun, you should always first check and photograph all markings. This generally involves removing the barrel and checking under it for proof and other marks. Otherwise, whoever tried to help you would not have the information to do so.
Mike

[Axel E]

This mark is on the barrel and the block. Can anyone identify it?

The simplified and somewhat crippled, imperial crown removed, eagle as used during the interwar years. One part of the German proof marks. Visible others are crown/B for proofload fired and 5,2 mm for the land diameter of the barrel. 241 is Neumann's serial number.

[Axel E]

So this seems far from being a Fluckiger. is in reality a Weber?

I am certainly no expert on single shot target pistols, let alone Swiss gunsmithes. But to me this pistol seems to be a Casimir Weber Modell Staeheli, except for the custom, made to measure grip. Afaik Robert Flueckiger and Casimir Weber were contemporary, both living in the Zuerich area. So I suspect Flueckiger got the metal parts from Weber, maybe in the white, made the grip exactly to the hand shape of a customer and finished it. Perhaps the two collaborated more often as a good gunsmith on metal often has to rely on another specializing in woodwork.

[EdinFlorida]

The simplified and somewhat crippled, imperial crown removed, eagle as used during the interwar years. One part of the German proof marks. Visible others are crown/B for proofload fired and 5,2 mm for the land diameter of the barrel. 241 is Neumann's serial number.

Thats an eagle? It is incredibly stylized then.
Screenshot 2020-11-25 063929.jpg
Could be that badly stamped

[Axel E]

This is the Reichsadler ?r German Imperial Eagle as prescribed as a proofmark by the 1892 proof rules:
[img]https://up.picr.de/39943606wl.jpg[/img]
[url=https://show.picr.de/39943606wl.jpg.html][img]https://thumbs.picr.de/39943606wl.jpg[/img][/url]
<img src='https://up.picr.de/39943606wl.jpg' border='0' />

As you see, this complicated design is impossible to engrave on a tiny stamp to be used on steel. So the design was simplified until the main outlines only survived. After the end of the monarchy November 1918 the crown over the eagle?s head was cut off the stamp. But the same stamps were used over and over again, at least to 1923. So the imprint became muddled more and more.

[EdinFlorida]

I don?t know how Neumann marked his guns.

Staring me in the face. In left side of receiver right next to the Serial, script "FN" n.b. about 0.15" tall.
Neumann Logo.jpg