8x57R/360 - How to? (NOT 8X57JR)

[Gut-n-Tight]

I found to my displeasure, that my Emil Pachmayr hammer drilling was made in 8X57R/360 not the common JR version. This less powerful 8mm cartridge was devised from necking down to .32 caliber the English Kynoch 2 1/4" 360 Nitro-Express. I will attach a drawing from the internet that gives the cartridge's dimensions. The round is said to be about as powerful as a 32 Winchester Special and about the size of a 38-55 cartridge. I had located a firm in Maryland to makes specialty brass, Quality Cartridge. QC's web site say that their products are available via Midway USA & Graf & Sons. Midway responded that they do not stock that cartridge. Graf says they are out of stock. QC's contact info left much to be desired. Their phone is for FAX only, contact takes you to what appears to be an on-line order that does not work. So where do I go from here? I did contact the Save the Hun Gun (paraphrased), but nothing has come from this yet.

I just got in a 30-30 shell holder, some 38-55 Win. brass and a 32-40 Lee Quick Trim Die as recommended. The shell holder fits the 38-55 brass but the case rims will need to be thinned to fit the gun. Okay, I can do this with my hand drill and file. The Winchester brand brass looks like it is too short. I was told that my normal 8mm (.318") Mauser sizing die may work for necking the case to, but when I ran a case in (without the expander) it buckled the mouth. Tried again with the expander in place, but the neck came out 1/8" in length-too short. This case will not go in fully.

As to the Lee Quick Size die, this large die baffles me. I thought I was getting one of those dies that you file the projecting brass off. I tried this die, proceeded to inject one of the 38-55 cases, but quickly came to a halt as it stopped about half way in. I pushed harder-CRUNCH! Came out with what looks like I had tried roll crimping the case over a cardboard wad to make a blank cartridge. Apparently, I have no clue how this works or why I now have it. It came with a slip of paper that says, "Trim with the instructions included." This is the only instruction that I received. 8x57R_360.gif
So here I sit, stymied & bewildered. What next?

[nhdblfan]

I have a Cape in that caliber and had this place make up some ammo-he used 200 Grain Woodleigh Soft point and HDS Cases.
https://www.safariarms.com/

[Gut-n-Tight]

Thanks for that (expensive) tip but I reload and want to do this myself.

For an update: I found that using my .303 British FL Sizer folded in the necks (lengthwise) of my new 38-55 brass less often than using the 8mm Mauser die but still the brass won't go in. this process wasted about 10 of the new cases. The above print shows the diameter of the case at the shoulder should be .375". After using either 8mm or 303 dies the brass diameter at this point is .390". I had nothing available that will pump that down except .357 magnum die. I took one of those crimped (ruined) 38's and ran it up into the 357 die. The more I did this, the further the case will enter my gun's chamber. To get it in I have to run it up into the 357 for almost a full inch. What I had at this point is a double shouldered casing.

I may have been better off buying some 32-40 Win. brass to start with. (?) Looks to me that I will have to get a set of dies for the thing or buy some ready to go ammo or start over with 32-40. Comments please.

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
Welcome to the joys of handloading for obsolete and/or wildcat cartridges. In other threads I mentioned you should use original length ( long)( 2.125- 2.130) 38-55 cases, which are a little shorter than the 8x57R/360 case, but will be useable by loading the bullet "out" to make the same OAL. New Winchester 38-55 cases are made the same length as 30-30 cases ( 2.080") which would result in cases too short to reliably hold the 8mm bullet. Starline makes original length and the shorter 38-55 cases, and they are known for making good cases. I suggest you go to the Starline website to read about these cases, but buy the Starline cases from what ever supplier you normally use( you could buy a lesser quantity than 250 pcs. from them). I suggested sizing the 38-55 cases in a 32-40 file trim die, I have no idea what the Lee Quick Sizer die is, but it sounds like it is similar to the old SAECO "stubby" style. This style die has to be adjusted to just size the neck/shoulder, or the case could be crushed. The point of sizing to 32-40 is so the case will fit into the chamber for fireforming to 8x57R/360. Sizing 38-55 cases lengthens them a little and fireforming will shorten them some ( hopefully less than they lengthened). If you start with 32-40 cases, they will fireform to 8x57R/360, but will also shorten some. The idea is to produce a case that is as long as possible with affordable donor cases. If this is too much trouble to save a few thousandths, you can just buy some 32-40 cases and give them a try. The whole operation has to satisfy you in the end, my opinion makes no difference, it is not my gun nor my money. We could also make full length cases from 303, but 38-55 would be a "walk in the park" in comparison.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

As an aside, I hand milled out the area where the case head sits in the gun. It did not take much to accomplish and hardly noticeable except being a bit shiny. Easier to do that than trimming case heads by hand one at a time.

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
Which case head did you open it up to fit? Did you size a case to fit, or cut a case head off one of the damaged cases?
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

I got side tracked, but I'm back-just like Arnold. I milled the gun to fit the 38-55 & 32-40 brass that I just got in. It did not take much metal off. The 38-55 brass will not go in the gun even after re-necking. They will need a sizing die. The 32-40 brass go right in now. I have twenty. I necked sized ten using my .303 Brit. die to take the .3115" lead Mosin bullets that I have. We will see if these will fire form the brass. The other ten I topped up with 150 grain .318" jacketed bullets. I used 2400 powder. I use this powder and the .3115 bullets in a plinking load in my .303 Enfield, but I scaled down the powder based on a 32-40 load that I found. I'll let you know how this worked out. Here's hoping. Ich bin Optomichtist.

[mike ford]

If you can buy or borrow a 32-40 file trim die( or even a FL sizing die), rather than the Quick Size Die, you can make 32-40 cases, except longer, from the long 38-55 cases. You have already found that 32-40 cases will chamber for fireforming. Let us know how it comes out.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Tomorrow I plan to shoot my made up 8mm/360 rounds using 32-40 cases and 2400 powder. Cartridges of the World shows a loading using 2400 (which I happen to have) for the 32-40: "13 grains Light Load". I hope to take a photo of the before and after 'Fire-Forming' operation. In years past, whenever I needed to fireform - I just loaded up a light load and shot it. Worked before.

I did more digging in my reloading info and my guess is the 32 Winchester Special, as suggested earlier, is as close to anything US as possible.

I am off to what was formerly Graf's Reloading in St. Charles (not affiliated) to get some shotgun powder and some H380. I use H380 in my 303 Enfield rifles and my Lyman book shows a load for 32 Win. Sp. using it. I'm hoping they may have a 32 Win. Sp. die set as this may make my 38-55 brass usable. I'll see if they have the trim die. The other Graf's said nobody makes the old fashion file down trim dies any longer.

[Gut-n-Tight]

Mission accomplished. Back from the range firing my much reduced loads to fire form the 32-40 brass. Started with undersize bullets (.3115"), then jacketed (.318") 8mm bullets. Used 2400 powder. I very comfortable to shoot light loads indeed. I was surprised to find that the drilling would outshoot my best Canadian No. 4 rifle with the lead .3115" bullets! I shot the Canuck gun first. This excellent shooter was putting lead bullets all over at 50 yards. I bought the lead bullets for off-hand practice. I won't be buying any more.

Then I moved over to the Emil Pachmayr drilling. You can see what I was doing in the attached photos. The more powder produced less carbon leakage. Only one case had a shoulder split. I took a photo of the group using jacketed bullets at the end. (I was aiming at the bottom of the barely visible bullseye. Ordered a 32 Winchester Special sizing die from Midway in the hope that this will shrink the 38-55 brass enough to fit chamber, but that is another tale for another day. I'll let the photos speak...
DSC00814med.jpg DSC00816med.jpg

[offhand35]

Very nice! It is always good to see something like this work out so well!

[Gut-n-Tight]

PS: If you look at the photo of the cartridges, I began from the right, how I worked my way left. After cleaning the fired (former 32-40) brass I noticed that about half were not well fireformed, some were barely noticeable though. I am going to redo the operation with proper size bullets and 15 grains of 2400. If I was to be asked, I'd recommend at least 14-15 grains of 2400 to fireform. Waiting on 32 Win. Special sizing die from Midway so I can tackle the 38-55 brass.

As an aside, I opened up the full & extra full chokes to full and improved modified. Before I fired the rifle portion, I shot a round of skeet. Got there almost too late. All the clay bird shooters were leaving. I had to push the button myself. After loading and cocking the hammer I would push the button and drop the actuator, raise the gun, aim, and fire. I only missed seven. Not bad for the chokes, shooting 7/8 oz. shot loads and having to do it all myself. I am getting to like the old gun.

AN UPDATE: I took my remaining 19 former 32-40 cases back to the range and conducted a redo only I raised the 2400 powder charge to 15-16 grains behind standard .318" jacketed bullets. All cases are now well formed. I have since reloaded with a charge of H380 behind some 174 grain soft-points using data from Lyman's 48th ed. for 32 Win. Sp. Here's hoping.

I would recommend that if you find yourself with this odd cartridge and cannot get brass, as I did, buy some 32-40 and fireform them as discussed earlier. I have now given up on trying to get the 38-55 cases to chamber in my drilling. I even lubed them and tapped them into the gun's chamber using a plastic hammer, then drove them back out using a cleaning rod. NO good. Maybe I have a tight chamber? Maybe if I wasn't so good und tight I'd have a proper resizing die? Trying to accomplish this with a 32 Win. die did not work. If you do choose to go with 32-40 cases the end product will be a bit short at the neck but if holds the bullets just fine and using my 8mm Mauser die set (.318 expander) reshapes the neck.

Being tight, I think I'll just buy another twenty 32-40 cases, fireform them and call it a day. 39 rounds of 8X57R/360 should do me. I'll let you know how the 32 loading works out.

LATER: I loaded my reformed 32-40 brass with 35-36 grains of H380 using Lyman's loading manual. Worked fine but the gun shoots 14 inches, 12'Oclock high at 100 yards.

[Gut-n-Tight]

I was finally able to size and fireform the 38-55 Winchester brass. I now have enough to outlast myself. If I was to do over, I'd just buy ready to go ammo or brass if I could find them.

[mike ford]

Gut-n-tight,
Sorry to hear your troubles with 38-55 cases. I never tried 32 Win. Special dies ( I used 32-40 file trim die) but thought they might work; the 32 head diameter being smaller than the 8x57R/360. My late mentor and friend Gene Enterkin often formed cases by driving them into the chamber( after getting them close) like you tried. He would wrap them with a layer of paper or file label to make up for the "spring back". On the first firing, they would fit the chamber better and work well. I'm interested, how did you make the 38-55 cases work? Good Show.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

After lubing and tapping the cases into the chamber failed to work, I kept thinking about someway to squeeze the cases a smidge more. Too bad that I am so Gut-n-Tight (cheap) to buy proper dies. What if I drilled and reamed a hole into a block of wood and tapped the cases into that? Nope, perhaps pine was too soft. Decided why not try this with a nut to a bolt? Eventually I got one, after several failed attempts, just the right size. I put this in my heavy vise and tapped away after lubing. Once in, I would tap the case out using a brass punch from within the case. This method was crude but it worked. Yesterday, I primed those cases but alas & alac... Can't find any proper bullets! Who would have thought that .321" would dry up? Go figure.