Merkel O/U anyone?

[sharps4590]

KInda slow coming but here's an update. The break in the stock was beyond my abilities as it was apparent to me it was going to need a cross bolt/thru-bolt. My gunsmith, in addition to being a friend, is as honest as the day is long and by his own admission, stock work is not his forte'. He still said, "let's look at it." Mark was so confident he was almost nonchalant about doing the repair. Then I remembered he's built dozens of Mausers with cross bolts/thru-bolts so it wasn't a big deal to him. I took it out there a week ago or so and Mark called yesterday and said it was finished. Picked it up last night and it's as perfect as one could ask or expect. And he only charged me $75.00. I put it back together this morning and function is flawless...as was expected. Now on to load development....as soon as the bullets arrive. Any of ya'll ever try cast bullets in an O/U....with success? My last project, the Vierordt, absolutely would not shoot them into a composite group less than 3-4 inches....and that was the best groups. Individual barrels often cloverleafed but they would not come together....and I was reluctant to drive them any faster. With 170 gr. or 200 gr. jacketed bullets it consistently shoots groups of 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 at 50 yards, open sights with sub 2 inch groups dominating.

While it was in pieces I removed the fore arm pieces, discovering the screws were not in their respective holes. I switched them around until I got them all where they belong and now they're all indexed and flush. It was definitely proofed in 1933 and proofed with a 196 gr. bullet.

[mike ford]

Vic,
What does it show for the powder charge?
Mike

[ohiochuck]

Yes I agree. You should request a copy of the Merkel records for .
your Merkel O/U
Looks very nice---Enjoy!
Jim

[sharps4590]

Mike, I don't remember. I don't even remember if it did. Shoulda wrote it down. Doesn't take much to pull it down.

Thank you chuck. It sure looks better with the right, front end of the butt stock not popped out if its mortise and resting on top of the receiver.

[sharps4590]

Mike, there was no powder charge indicated, just 12 gram, steel bullet...and I was right, that is 184-186 grain.

algmule, reference you question about the marks on the standing breech, they're nothin more than discoloration. Locks up like a bank vault.

[mike ford]

Vic,
I was not trying to be a problem, I was trying to confirm which version of 8x60RS you have. The GI ad said it is the Magnum version, but no marks on the rifle, showing or indicating this, were shown or described. In one comment you said it was proofed for a 196 gr bullet and in the last comment you said it indicated a 184-186 gr.( 12 gram) bullet. When you start handloading, it would be very helpful to know which version it was chambered , and therefore regulated, for. This task will likely be somewhat complicated by a scope having been mounted.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Oh no Mike, I never thought that at all and If my reply sounded curt, I sure didn't mean it to. I was kinda frustrated with myself for not remembering or writing it down and having R&R'ed the carbs on my MG-B for about the 6th time. New style floats that didn't come with any instructions for where to set the level. Finally found the right spot with some help from the MG site....and now the needle and seats leak. Soooo....they come off yet again. Gotta love vintage cars and new parts. Brand new needles and seats....which I have since learned have a reputation for being junk.

Yes sir, it is marked as a magnum and it is proofed for a 12 gram, 184-86 gr. bullet. Since I didn't write down anything and I'd never heard or seen an 8mm proofed with that weight bullet I assumed I read it wrong and there was a decimal something I didn't see after the 12 but, there isn't. There, clear as mud...lol!! There was no powder charge indicated.

I have worked with the rifle a little and have learned the brass that came with it is really thick, it has to be. It's RCC brass and I've never heard of that either. Anyway, You can't get an 8 X 57 Mauser starting load in the cases. Speer shows I think 46 grs. of IMR-4064 for a starting load with a 150 gr. bullet. I got 45 grs. in the case by using a 24 in. drop tube. The bullets that were loaded, which I pulled and dumped the powder, were 150 gr. over 49 grs. of supposedly IMR-4895. When I pulled the bullets several of the loads were slightly compressed. Anyway, I charged the cases with 45 grs. of IMR-4064 and seated the 150 gr. bullets. At 50 yards they went into a 1 1/8 in. group, benched but held in my hands, nothing of the rifle was rested. Pressure signs were mild and the cases fell from the rifle when the barrels were elevated. Thing is the group was 8 inches above point of aim...which just means a taller front sight if I stay with that load. That was open sights. I haven't done anymore than just put the scope on the rifle to see it then took it off.

I tried a Hornady 170 gr. round nose for about 12 or 16 rounds and it never got under 3 inches. The only powder I tried with them was IMR-4895

Back to the cases. Because the volume of the RCC cases is so small for the cartridge I sized, trimmed and fire formed a Norma, 9.3 X 74R case and compared water volume of the two. The Norma case held 8 grains more water than the RCC case. Not sure what to make of that other than the RCC cases are very heavily constructed and impinge on case volume.

Martin sent me a pile of data for the cartridge but it's all Rottweil powder and I don't have access to it or have a chart which is comparative to our usual powders so, I'm kind wingin' it right now.

If you remember the Vierordt double, I have it shooting consistently into 2 inches or less, right on top of the front sight at 50 yards, with the Hornady 170 gr. round nose.....and I think H-4895...good grief, I can't remember spit anymore. I won a Schmidt and Bender, 4X scope at an auction and put it on the rifle. Wild would describe the groups so, it came off to go on another rifle at some later time.

[mike ford]

Vic, From a chart in the 1940 Shooter's Bible, DWM had several loads for the 8x60R, including 12.7 gram and 12 gram bullets. The listed pressure was 3200 kg/cm2 for the 12.7 gram with 3.5grams of spec powder, and for the 12 gram was 3100 with 3.15 grams of W.1919 powder or 3300 with 3.5 grams of spec. powder . The rimless version showed 3100 for a 12.7 gram and 12.8 gram bullet using 3 grams of R.5 powder. Axel finds that R.5 has a similar burning rate as VV140 and I find H4895 is similar( of course start 10% lower and work up). In a 1988 letter to Old Western Scrounger, passed on to my late friend and mentor Gene Enterkin, Hercules reported that Reloader 15, Reloader 19, and Reloader 22 are improved versions of of the powders previously sold by Norma as N203, 204, and MRP. Norma introduced N 203 as a replacement for N202 and is about 3% slower burning than N202. Rottweil R 902 is identical to N202, Rottweil R 904 is identical to N204 and Rottweil R905 is identical to N205(replaced by MRP). While you can't substitute directly, maybe you can use the relationships to come up with starting loads of Reloader powders. Of course, you will have to do this yourself and be responsible for the results. If you have any, or can find any, I suggest you convert 7x65R cases to 8x60R. I find 9.3x74R case's head diameter is usually a couple thousandths smaller and the less you shorten a case, the less likelyhood there is that turning the neck may be necessary.
Good Luck,
Mike

[sharps4590]

I noticed that about the 9.3 X 74R case. Martin said the same as you, to use 7 X 65R. Huntington's did have some but I haven't looked lately.

Now I gotta digest all that powder information. I'm completely ignorant of Norma and Rottweil powders.

Thank you VERY much!!!

[mike ford]

Vic,
You are welcome, let me know if you can't find any 7x65R cases.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Huntington's had them. 2 boxes on the way! Boy, is it great shooting unusual, uncommon stuff, it's in stock!!!