Emil Pachmayer hammer drilling - what caliber rifle?

[Gut-n-Tight]

This is getting better! Just discovered this video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABT7LDYAEKU
too bad it is in Russian but the man does a fine job of describing the round and comparing it to the 9,3X72R.

This is the link to a firm in Vienna - https://www.buechsenpatronen.at/buec...ronen/patronen

Enjoy.

[algmule]

Hello

Thank you for the images. I have nothing on "LUG" (if that's what it is?). Let's say they were poorly equipped and didn't have a W-stamp tool, maybe they were creative and used an L and and a U tool to stamp a W. If so (which I don't really believe) it might be "WG.". Mere suggestions on my part would be Wilhelm G?rting or Wilhelm Gr?newald, both from Suhl and both with the title Rohrmacher. Admittedly, I've not checked among the many names in Suhl under the title B?chsenmacher-/Meister. Drilling proofed in Suhl sometime between 1912 and 1923. Left tube choked to some extent.

I have never seen a "LUG." marking before. It may well be a later addition, or not. Maybe someone else knows what it is.
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What's here?
vv4.JPG

Looking forward to a report once you get it shooting.

Kind regards
Peter

[Gut-n-Tight]

pix809600291.jpg
Another day and the plot thickens or thins depending how you want to see it. This morning I find that both Graf & Sons and Midway USA have 8X57R-360 Brass listed - out of stock of course. Maker is Quality Cartridge in Maryland. I live in Missouri - home of both aforementioned. I punched that caliber designation into both of their web sights before and drew no results. Look harder this morning and there they were - go figure.

Peter,
Both barrels marked ACUCHLINGS GTR ELCKTROSTAHL. After a piss poor session on the skeet range muzzles checked full & extra full. pix828847542.jpg

[algmule]

Hello

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Tj?taR?chlingst?l2.JPG

Tj?taR?chlingst?l3.JPG

Tj?taR?chlingst?l4.JPG

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
I said earlier that the gun has a Sauer look, but the photos of markings did not confirm this, so it isn't as likely now. Peter already said it was choked in one barrel, which I consider a pretty good combination of chokes. The 16 in a circle means it has the standard (65mm) 16 ga chamber, but you already knew the chamber length. The 16/1 is the bore diameter, in gauge measurement, ahead of the chamber; which works out to 16.99 mm. You asked for suggested loading data for 150 and 170 grain bullets. Since I can only be responsible for my own actions, components and equipment, I resist making specific recommendations that I cannot control. Sometimes I may report what I did that worked for me. Axel has reported that the old German powder R5 seems to be fairly well duplicated by VV N140 powder and he sometimes uses this as a guide when loading for cartridges for which he can find factory loads using R5 powder. I use a good bit of "military pull down"( reclaimed) 4895 powder and find that it too seems very similar to R5. Consequently, I use R5 data( where available) charge weight, reduced by 10% as a starting point, with the 4895, and work up from there. For my own 8x57R/360, I started with 170 gr. .318 bullets, resized from .321", with the 4895. After firing the first batch, I did the "ole bullet in the neck test" and discovered that with my particular chamber/brass combination, I am able to use some 170 gr. .3215" bullets I have on hand, that were intended for Rem. 8mm Mauser ammo. My target velocity was 2150 fps and 36.5 grains of the 4895, with the Rem. bullet averaged 2152 fps. Factory loads with R5 powder, found in the 1940 Shooter's Bible ( reprint) showed 2.3 grams( 35.5 grains) with the 12.7 gram( 196 grain) bullet and 2.4 grams( 37 grains) with the 10 gram ( 154 grain) bullet. If you or a friend have a " load by computer" type ballistics program the pressure limit ( in 1989) was 2200 bars (31908 psi) c.u.p. There doesn't seem to be a reliable translation factor from c.u.p to psia. Before I finished with this cartridge, I went to a 5.6x35R vierling, 6.5x58R S&S, and 7x65R, so I don't have final data, including group size for the 8X57R/360. Keep in mind, if you do the bullet in the neck test and use a larger bullet, then change to a different case, you must do the test again. Also when making cases from 38-55, you may need to reduce the rim diameter, as well as thickness( not always). If you do, only reduce it enough to barely fit into the rim recess. This centers the case in the chamber and insures even expansion in fireforming. I hope this helps.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

I just got done resizing some of my 8mm bullets to .319 using my Lee die. Oddly the .323" Privi HP boat tails were easier to size than Federal .321" SP. The only powders that I have at the moment is 2400 & H380. I got books showing cast bullet loads using 2400 in 32-40 & 38-55. I may try those lead .3115" bullets using data from combining a 32-40 & 38-55 for that first fireform. This should not be very stout. Wish me luck.

[mike ford]

If you want to use your bullets(cast), that should work fine. I mostly fireform w/o a bullet, but I don't know if 2400 is fast enough to build up enough pressure with only a filler and no bullet. If you can find a load for 32 Win. Special, using H380, you might reduce it 10% and work up from there. In a drilling, you can't go by traditional signs of high pressure. Before you see the signs, the pressure is already too high( not talking about fireforming loads, rather hunting loads). Good luck.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Mike, thanks for the tip. I will use 32 Win. as a model with or without H380. I was going to ask that if you are reluctant to publish load data, as I would be, to recommend something to go by. There is that LOAD DATA web site that suggests some loads for the 8x57R/360 but all are for 196 grain bullets, there is one for 183 grain cast bullets using 2400. But, you have to subscribe to get the charge weight and I do not care to buy those expensive .318" - 196 grain bullets. I do miss those days when Norma sold .318" 196 grain bullets here in the USA. My 8X57JR shoot resized Hornady 150-170 grain jacketed bullets just fine. I only use my reloaded, normally available ammo, for target practice. If I go into the woods to hunt I stick to the factory stuff. Having said that, why buy expensive bullets and reloading to hunt - just buy more factory ammo. In this case it looks like I will have to make an exception. I've always use Norma load data and powders for my more conventional drilling rifle ammo. Well, I think we put this dead horse to rest for now.

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight,
Have fun. If you buy some VV N140 or H 4895, you could guide on the R5 data for 150 and 198 gr bullets and you know what mine did with 170gr/ 4895 combo. Graf and Sons has 196 gr .323 SP bullets for $14.99/ 50( + tax/tag & title). Your .318" sizing die will work on then as well as the 170 gr. Hornady. On the otherhand, I could understand why you might rather have the extra velocity of the 170gr over the extra weight of the 196 gr. Norma might very well have a powder with a burning rate close to R5 also. Good luck.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

One more? I found there is another place that makes a whole lot of obscure metric brass cartridge cases here, Quality Cartridge in Maryland. Their web site states that both Graf & Sons and Midway USA carry their products, but good luck on finding the 8X57R-360. Neither Graf nor Midway sites search will pull this up. Graf responded with the exact inventory number that did not pull the item up either, but the link provided did! (?) Of course, both had none in stock. I've asked both to let me know when they get some.

Having drawn a blank here, I decided to contact Quality Cartridge directly. There phone number is for FAX only. Clicking onto their Contact Us feature takes you to what looks like an order form, not an inquiry. I put in my info, clicked on MasterCard, entered what I wanted (20 - 8X57R-360) for $56.97. there was no asking for my card number, etc.! Clicking on the submit button produced no response. Printing out their pdf 2014 Retail Catalogue produced 15 pages. I wonder if they are still operating. It doesn't look promising.

Do you think that opening another thread on making this cartridge would help?

PS: to Peter, thanks for the background info.

[algmule]

Hello

Peter already said it was choked in one barrel, which I consider a pretty good combination of chokes.

Mike Ford, I was wrong. I've re-studied the images in the thread. Both tubes are marked for constriction: crown W. Sorry.

Does anybody know anything on this business in Alabama?
http://german-gun-imports.com/Home/
They list the 8x57 R - 360

http://german-gun-imports.com/Ammuni...-and-supplies/
Scroll down, under the heading "Rare European cartridge new brass available: contact for prices"

I have no connection to them, just so you know.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
I didn't see the 2nd W either, no need to be sorry. Yes, I know the people in your link( by email, not face to face), I'm not connected to the company, but support what they are trying to do. One of the owners is in Germany and can order ammo/cases etc. and send it to Alabama. It will be expensive, however. They have a limited stock of more common metric ammo, and stock German guns. In my opinion, their site is worth a look.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Terry Again. I sent the Save the Hun Gun people regarding brass cases an email. Aside, now seems not a good time to look for anything involving bullets, brass, and even powders. Everything is sold out.

[mike ford]

Terry,
Covid19 has everything closed to a crawl, I'm guessing, especially so in Germany. We hear, in the news, they are going or have gone into another lock down. I checked websites that I had saved from a couple years ago and could only get a couple to come "up". A couple others "came up" as "Domain name for sale". I don't know if they are "shut down" or out of business. I did get into Waffen Dorfner's (Austrian- Vienna) site. They show the 8x57R/360 with the 12,7 gram( 196grain) bullet as costing 4.70 Euros each or 94 Euros per package ( 20) plus shipping and other costs. I don't know the current conversion rate, but that seems to make loading your own more attractive.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

I am going to start a new thread - making 8X57R/360.