Incoming H. Scherping gun with a problem

[offhand35]

IMG_2667.jpg IMG_2667.jpg I had ordered (rescued) an H. Scherping 16ga Underlever hammer gun through an importer from Germany. I had noticed in the original listing photos after sending my deposit that the rt. hammer screw appeared to be missing, I had asked if it could be replaced while it was still in the German gunsmith's possession, (not matching ok) thinking it might be easier for him to do there rather than try to find or make one here in the US. I was either misunderstood or outright ignored. Anyway, the gun is now here in the US. I still have the option to refuse it. I am going to consult with my local gunsmith this week about it, but thought I would run the question by everyone here. The final question is , do I pursue bringing this gun home?
Would it be possible to locate a hammer screw for the lock on this gun? Would anyone know of a place to start? Likely pretty difficult as I suspect the thread would be unique to Scherping guns. If the hole does not have a broken screw piece stuck in it, maybe a gunsmith can make one?

[mike ford]

offhand35,
If your gunsmith cleans and oils the screw hole and builds a little clay dam around it, he can make a cerrosafe copy of the screw thread. Using the lefthand screw as an example, he should then be able to duplicate it. If the old screw is broken off in the hole, that might complicate matters. A lefthand drill should remove it though. Whether you keep it or send it back is entirely up to you, but I have kept guns that needed considerably more work than that and was happy with the decision.
Mike

[offhand35]

MIke, I wanted to say thank you for your input! I felt much more comfortable about the whole deal. Then when I showed my gunsmith the photo, he said, "I think we can do something about that, I will just have figure out the thread". The smile on his face said that he might already have something sitting around waiting to be used just for that.

[mike ford]

Great, now all you have to do is find some 2 1/2" shells before Dove season is over.
Mike

[offhand35]

This gun is supposedly chambered to 70mm. I still don't have it at home yet. Even so, I am completely set up to make 65mm shells. I had several 65mm chambered Browning Auto-5's, one of which I shot at the local trap club for years. I still have one, getting ready to sell. In going to the German sxs I have had to unlearn much, and shooting them is still not as instinctive as I was with the Auto-5.

[offhand35]

Ok I have had the gun in hand for approx 1/2 hr. It is still at my gunsmith's, as I have not decided yet whether to return the gun to the importer or to accept it. There are quite a number of issues that were not part of the original description by the importer. That description was indeed sparse.
The gun was indeed built by H. Scherping of Hannover. The overall workmanship and fit of the gun is what would be expected. The engraving is similar to but finer than that on my other Scherping from 1912-1920.
This gun was imported to the US by a small company whose mission is to save fine German guns from being destroyed when the owner has passed away and there is no one in the family to take ownership.
Receiver/lock issues: The only issue I knew about from the beginning was the missing rt. hammer screw. The hammers show extensive damage, indenting and wear in the noses from being fired, but more likely from being frequently dry fired over many years because both firing pins are pounded flush into their nipples/bushings and jammed, with the pins protruding into the breech. They do not retract. Likely the tips are also damaged from opening and closing the gun. I did not notice damage or marks to the chambers or extractors though.
The locks themselves function well and and the rebounding feature is also functional. The locks were downright pleasant to operate, smooth, with no looseness or slack.
The seller listed this gun as having 70 mm chambers, and I forgot to bring my 16ga chamber gauge with me. I will have to go back tomorrow to verify chamber length. The 70mm claim is highly questionable. The barrel flats have NO markings on them at all. There is a very tiny RB stamped into one of the barrels next to the flats. There is a number 1190 stamped into the rib near the barrel key slot. This is telling me that the gun was built pre-1891, and was off a dealer's shelf long before that time. It has been stated that Mr. Scherping began building guns in 1831. The fact the the fore end is held in place using a captive barrel key like a muzzle loader makes me wonder if this is from 1850 or earlier. The rib has been repaired with with a new 6" section pieced in, visible from underneath. Add to all this the finding that the barrels were blued relatively recently, in a manner that nearly hides the fact that they are Damascus barrels having a circular pattern. The bores are dirty and without using a bore scope, appear to be quite pitted.

I had really wanted to be able to shoot this gun. Making black powder shells is not a problem for me. My gunsmith friend was prepared to make the hammer screw, and is fully capable of making new firing pins and fitting springs if needed. The age of the is gun is not what is putting me off. The condition of the bores and the bluing of the external barrel finish pretty much makes me question their safety. I was not really interested in having a beautiful gun that I cannot shoot. And still , I have not yet made up my mind.

[mike ford]

offhand35,
Whether you keep the gun, or not, is entirely up to you; but here are some observations. The firing pins are fairly easy to make. All hammer guns that have seen significant use are likely to show similar marks on the hammers. Most important is that the locks work well, defective locks can be fairly easy or very hard ( read-expensive) to repair, so well functioning locks are a positive. The cutting in of a new section of rib, and reblue of the barrels may not be concerning, but with the info provided, I couldn't say one way or the other. If it was rustblued in Germany, it would likely hold, if "hot salts" blued in the US, this would be questionable. Since the gun is still at your gunsmith, a telephone call should be able to clear up the chamber length question. It should have 65mm chambers or have " repair" or reproof marks and the chamber length IDed by a 70. A 70mm chamber length, without marks, was likely done in the US ( but not positive) and might call into question the rib repair and blue job. I think the gun is not as old as you estimated, If there is a "Crown V" somewhere around the "dolls head", it was "in stock" when the 1891 proof law went into effect in Mar. 1893. Lacking this mark, it would have preceded that date, the question being by how much. The keyed forearm is not definitive to "age" the gun. My feeling is that the gun dates closer to 1890 than 1850. As far as condition is concerned, a 130 year old gun has to be judged by different standards (antique) than a new gun, so some defects are understandable. If your gunsmith has any experience with antique guns, you could accept his advice over mine, I have not inspected the gun.
Mike

[offhand35]

Thanks Mike. I have had some time to calm down since my rant / post.... yes an antique like this should be judged differently from a later gun. The features of the gun are very interesting. AND this gun should be more about collecting. There are no marks whatsoever on the barrel flats, and only the two marks i mentioned, the RB an the 1190 to be found anywhere. As the gun was in Germany until the beginning of this month, then probably the reblue was done correctly. It was not done to accentuate the damascus pattern , that is for sure. If the bores looked clean, I would have taken it home yesterday. I have located a double gun restorer with apparently lots of experience w/ damascus barrels. I hope to contact him today to see if a plan can be made for inspection etc.

[offhand35]

I went back and checked the chamber length today with my Galazan 16ga chamber gauge. It does not even go it up to the 2 9/16" mark, indicating 65mm chambers. This is good, showing that the chambers have not been tampered with. The discoloration in the bores does not come out on a tight patch with solvent. The patch shows some mild rust stain. Everything could be restored/repaired if the bores could be determined or made to be functional . Waiting for replies from the importer and the restorer.

[algmule]

Hello

Here's my take on Heinrich Scherping in Hannover: Heinrich Scherping, B?chsenmacher, was, according to city records, first mentioned with a Hannover-address in 1863. He took over the shop of widow Justine Eckebrecht, Wagenerstra?e 11. Justine's shop is first recorded under B?chsenmacher in the city records of Hannover in 1858, at the address Kleine Brandstra?e 11. It's not known to whom she had been married but the only male Eckebrecht I've been able to find is/(was) a Christian Eckebrecht, Rustmeister at the Garde-Regiment, address Kleine Brandstra?e 11, Hannover, so I'd put my money on him. In 1861 the shop of Justine Eckebrecht changed address to Wagenerstra?e 11. I have not researched if the street simply was renamed but it's a possibility.

Heinrich Scherping is first mentioned as Hofb?chsenmacher in 1867 (with a slim possibility that he was appointed late in 1866).

In 1865 a new address is listed for B?chsenmacher Heinrich Scherping, Georgstra?e 9. In 1866 the address is Georgstra?e 10, and in 1868 he's still at number 10. Further in time than 1868 I have not performed any research on Heinrich Scherping. I might do in future, though.

Of interest may be that there also was a Dorothea Eckebrecht, widow to a B?chsenmacher (unknown) in Hannover, address Langestra?e 31.

I don't believe Heinrich Scherping was active in 1831. I believe he was born in 1831.

The 1891 proof law went into effect on April 1, 1893. What Mike Ford means is that throughout March 1893 the crown V was stamped on guns in stock. Some say they started stamping crown V earlier than March. I agree with Mike Ford that the topic of the thread is close to (around) 1890. If so, I don't believe Heinrich Scherping manufactured the thing from scratch. He may very well have performed some work on it but I believe the RB points to the (real) maker. Here are SUGGESTIONS for B: Bader (Mehlis); B?chel (Suhl); Braungardt (Suhl). Note they are mere suggestions. 1190 I believe to be a serialnumber of RB, whoever he was. Maybe RB supplied the barrel?

If possible, may we have an image of the marking RB?

Also: it's clear that the Scherping information on the Apel-site is incorrect (sadly, as I like the site). In 1857 the following names are listed for Hannover
Abich; Becker; Chevallier; Tanner & Sohn - B??uchsenmacher
Tanner & Sohn - Gewehrfabrik
Grosse; Schneider - Gewehrhandlung
Seeliger, Witwe - Schwertfeger

Perhaps Heinrich Scherping was an apprentice at Justine Eckebrecht's shop and that's why he's mentioned as starting out in 1857. There are, however, to my knowledge no sources for this. I'd be very pleased, though, if someone could direct me to such sources.

Der Neue St?ckel might not be a great source as was clearly illustrated in the latest issue of Waidmannsheil.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

I agree with Peter that it is unlikely that Scherping actually made the gun, but may have very well finished it. It was very common for guns "made for the trade" to be marked with the seller's name, this tradition ran well into the 20th century, likely even until today. Since Scherping was listed as a Buschenmacher, it is likely that he did work on the gun, maybe so much as fitting and finishing blank parts and having it engraved. Also, I believe the RB is for the barrel maker. As always, I may be terribly wrong.
Mike

[offhand35]

Mike and Peter, thank you for the extensive replies regarding this gun. Every issue with this gun would have been resolvable, but the condition of the barrels left too much concern for me to deal with. To TGGI's credit, the entire cost of the transaction, including import/shipping fees was refunded to me on return of the gun. Had they been fluid steel barrels I would have kept it.