Converted Karabiner Mauser 71

[DreyseM65]

I found this recently and thought it was interesting. Cut down but still in its original military 11.15 x 60 cartridge. Since I developed a nice target smokeless load for the M71s and M71/84 for the vintage military matches I shoot in, I figured I would try that same load.

[mike ford]

DreyseM65,
Is your load for M71 and M71/84 rifles a blackpowder or smokeless powder load?.
Mike

[DreyseM65]

Mike, a smokeless load. 21grs of 5744 gives me 1020 fps with a 385gr cast bullet. I can then get a perfect 6 o'clock hold on a NRA SR-1 target at 100 yards, while using the M71/84 250 meter sight blade. Easily gets me all 9s and 10s.

Willi

[mike ford]

Willi,
I had a M71/84 that would shoot the .446" bullet with smokeless, and later got an M71 and traded the 71/84. The M71 would not shoot the .446" bullet with smokeless, and I avoid blackpowder. I wondered if your load would shoot in the M71 as well as the 71/84. My M71 Sporter, and the others I checked, "slugged" considerably larger than my M71/84( and others I checked), which did fit the 446" bullet. This is in opposition to the commonly held belief that the barrels are the same. What is your experience with the groove diameters?
Mike

[DreyseM65]

Mike, so far I have just fired a M71/84 in smokeless and a M71 with BP. All 3 of my 71/84s, and well as my "Prussian capture" 43 Spanish Peabody and Werndl 67/77 shoot the .446 very well. My 3 M71s and M71k have barrels which range from .452 to .455. I am going to try smokeless soon with both my .446 bullets and also some paper wrapped ones. Conventional wisdom tells me they won't shoot well.

I only recently took up black powder shooting, so I don't have any concerns in working up some 43 Mauser loads. I shoot a custom BP Sharps 74 in .40-65 at local steel matches out to 500 meters. I was going to compete in the 1000-yard Creedmoor match in Tennessee in March with my Schuetzenmeister (who has been my mentor) but COVID-19 put a stop to that match.

I also have a Bavarian Werder and French Chassepot which have been era converted to the 11.15 x 60R. Will try those as well. Though retired, I don't seem to find the time for everything I want to do!

Willi

[mike ford]

Willi,
My M71 has a .452" barrel so I would prefer to use .454" bullets, but the way I load them, they won't work. I size the Lyman # 457124, 400 gr bullet to .452" and lubricate all the grooves, including the crimping groove. I then seat it in an "over belled", charged case, which leaves a bulged neck that will not chamber. I then size the neck to the base of the bullet in a 444 Marlin sizing die. I seat the bullet to leave the top grease groove and lubricated crimping groove outside the case. By sizing the neck with the seated bullet, it effectively becomes a heeled bullet. The load I use is 27.5 gr. 5744, which runs close to original velocity. I often use a tuft of kapok tamped down on the powder( there is considerable disagreement over this), but I didn't find it necessary, as this load shoots well without it. A bullet larger than .452" won't clear the die, but it works fine for me. I do very little target shooting, anyway, while I do hunt with them. BTW, I only have to bell and size the neck, and not FL size.
Mike

[DreyseM65]

Mike,
The M71 I have fired with a BP load has a .452" barrel as well. I have read that others also suggest a .454" bullet. When I have fired a BP cartridge (70grs of FFg) I measured the mouth and it was .446". I was taught by an more seasoned wise shooter that you should only use a bullet which will fit in a fired casing. No resizing, belling, etc, of pricey Bertram brass. That has served me well with other rifles/ calibers. For example my Peabody in 43 Spanish is supposed to use a .439 bullet. Well, when I loaded such a bullet with 22grs of 5744, the bullet keyholed at 50 yards! I had slugged the barrel before and it was .444". When I measured the fired casing, it was .446", so I used the same .446" 43 Mauser bullet and it also was accurate enough to stay in the black at a 100 yards. Sorry to say I am not a hunter, but have been a serious competitive shooter for 40+ years. So, my focus is to work on a load until I am able to hit precisely and accurately, regardless of how the load relates to the original specs of the round. And, I am still cautious with a smokeless load in a BP rifle, especially if the rifle is pre-1885 or so.

While I do not have unrealistic expectations, I am going to fiddle with a smokeless M71 load, trying both paper patched bullets with a solid base and a hollow base. Will the bullet expand .006" without the explosion of the BP at the onset? It didn't in the Peabody.

Regards,
Willi

[mike ford]

Willi,
The advice you were given about bullet diameter is very close to the advice I give concerning using rifles intended for .318" bullets, with larger ones( incl jacketed bullets). Instead of measuring the fired case neck, I advise just checking to see that the desired bullet will go into the fired case easily. The difference between measuring and testing can't much, maybe a thousandth or so. I didn't make this up myself, I learned it from Axel, who I think got it from pre WW1 research, through a post WW1 "paper" from MAUSER. The basic idea, to have enough room to release the bullet is more critical with jacketed bullets. When the neck( with seated bullet) is sized in the 444 die, it creates room for the neck to expand and release the bullet. The use of "heeled" bullets was common when the 11.15x60R was being developed and I have wondered if a heeled bullet was considered during the experiments. I believe the cartridge came from the Werder cartridge, since you have a Werder, do you know if that cartridge ever used a heeled bullet? If a heeled bullet wasn't contemplated, the larger groove diameter likely came from the Prussians copying the Chassepot barrel specs. in preference to the Dreyse after the Franco- Prussian War. If you use a soft bullet and a healthy load of black powder, the bullet might( maybe even likely would) obturate enough to give good accuracy. I find that smokeless powder and an alloy( not pure lead) bullet won't do that. We are cautious with smokeless powder in blackpowder rifles also, we all must be. You mentioned not sizing and belling pricey Bertram brass, The price of Bertram brass is an important consideration, and I would expect it would be more so for a competitive shooter. I still have some factory CIL cases for the Mauser and a box of Bertram set aside, but we have mostly converted over to 45-90 and 45-70 cases to make Mauser Base cases from. This requires reforming( deforming) the rims and reducing the diameter ( to about .595" to fit extractor). The head diameter of the 45-70/90 cases is .010-.015" smaller than the MB case, but they fireform to fit the chamber well ( the rim centers the head and the bullet centers the neck, so it forms evenly). My cousin uses the 45-90 for 11.15x60R cases, I use 45-70 for 11.15x51R and our friend Steve uses 45-70 for his 11.5x50R cases, all with perfect satisfaction. The 45-90 cases should work for the 43 Spanish with only adjustments to the rim and forming. I am using ca 1912 Western cases salvaged from old unfired ammo now, but it is Berdan primed and was made with "folded" heads. New solid head cases would just be more convenient , and Berdan primers are becoming harder to find. I feel a little bit funny giving you any suggestions, you obviously have a lot more experience.
Mike

[DreyseM65]

Mike, I have a lot to learn, so I am all ears. It have only been 7 years, or so, since I have focused on shooting and collecting 19th Century German military arms and Scheibenwaffen up to 1945. Casting, swaging, BP loading, etc, are all new to me. Fine gentlemen, like Bill Loos, have been a great mentor and am fortunate to spend quality time with him at 6 or 7 great shows each year.

I have a large well-known collection with a completely different focus, that I have been building for the last 30+ years, as well as a different shooting focus all these years.

The Prussians captured about 600,000 French Chassepots in 1871. Superior to the Prussian Dreyse "Needle Gun". They did a series of modifications to equip the troops of the new German Empire, especially the cavalry, and while introducing the new 11.15x60R cartridge. The final conversion was done in 1875 with the "Aptierte" Chassepot carbine. They added a cutdown Mauser 71 barrel, and I was finally able to add one of those last call. On my project list for the range.

Regarding the Werder rifle caliber, the Bavarians introduced the M69 in time for the Franco-Prussian War. Though used in limited numbers. Caliber was 11x50R. I don't have that one, and have never seen one in the US. Again, once the empire was formed the 11.15x60R was adopted as the standard cartridge. The Bavarians had to modify their Werders before adopting the M71. There were 3 stages of modifications. The first one did not function well, for a number of reasons: sloppy bolt manufacturing, ejection troubles, etc. The second one was improved dramatically, and I have one of those. Also in the project line for the range. The third model, the Werder "n.M" (neu Modell), was improved by adding a M71 barrel. The earlier 2 just had the M71 sight. Still haven't found one.

Much to still develop and test with the 43 Mauser cartridge.

Regards,
Willi

Von meinem Droid Moto Z gesendet.

[mike ford]

Willi,
While writing an article concerning 11 mm rifles and ammo, for WAIDMANNSHEIL #46, I tried to understand how/why the 11.15x60R has the unusual base/rim we call the Mauser Base ( MB). I only had limited research material, some of which was not considered reliable by people whose opinions I respect. Part of this material was an early "shop drawing" of the Mauser action that became the M71. This drawing included the initial cartridge intended for the future conversions and new rifles. This cartridge case was made by fitting a tubular body to a "solid base" that became the MB. This cartridge was much shorter than 60mm, in the order of 50mm. In trying to understand why the length was increased, I didn't find discussion of a pressing need for more power. I did, however find a discussion of converting captured Chassepots to the Mauser system. The first attempt was to cut the chamber section off the Chassepot barrel and a new chamber was reamed. Testing resulted in some barrels failing because cutting it off left it too small in diameter. The second method, which was accepted, was the Chassepot chamber received a bushing which was chambered for the new cartridge. As I have found out from personal experience, the cartridge used in a bushed chamber must extend past the end of the bushing. The reason for this is so obturation of the case can prevent the high pressure combustion gasses from entering the joint between the bush and barrel, causing a failure. It was my unverified opinion that the M71 cartridge was made 60 mm long , rather than 50mm to allow conversion of Chassepot rifles to the Mauser system and new M71 barrels were made to match the Chassepot barrels, for conformity, because it was considered more accurate than the Dreyse ( the actual accuracy problem may have been the Deryse bullets instead). It seems that the .446" diameter barrel often considered proper for the M71, was not actually made until the M71/84 was made. Contrary to some few opinions, M71 rifles were never converted to M71/84, the action forging was so different, they had to be made new. The M71/84s all had the smaller diameter barrel. I didn't find discussion of the M71's accuracy problems being caused by the larger barrels, in addition to other problems. We have to keep in mind that this work was going on before we found out what we know now, indeed it is likely the basis for much of the current knowledge. As always, I might be completely wrong.
Mike