Black or not?

[Gut-n-Tight]

I took pity on an old JP Sauer & Sohn SXS hammer shotgun in 16 gauge. It looked like it belonged on a Cracker Barrel wall. Pitted barrels, one good dent and generally unkept. What was good about it? It fits like a glove, extremely light and unlike most old hammer guns, it did not rattle when I shook it. Despite the deplorable condition it is still tight as a drum. Only the trigger guard screws look like they have ever been touched. After many hours spend rubbing, brushing, and fussing; I got the dent out and it looks a lot better. I was about to put some of my 65mm handloads into it but paused.
Could this be a black powder gun? Barrels are not Damascus. There are no "Nitro" markings as there are on all my other Germanic doubles and drillings, postwar or prewar. Both barrels have the crown (in England-Queen's crown), the 1srt & 2nd proof spread eagles, small crown over, S, W, & U proofs, 16 in a circle (2.5"). Both are marked 16/1 which I take for full chokes although one, the right, has been opened up. The left barrel is marked, "nicht fur kugel". I take this for not for slug. Above this mark is - 5..9S. The right barrel marked, "PAPP.16 - 65.4, S.P.28,5 PL".
Wanting to shoot it, I made up eight black powder 65mm shells. As the barrels are very thin, I thought it best to take it easy. I started with 35 grains of Pyrodex under 7/8 oz. birdshot, working up to 38 grains. Worked just fine.
What do I have, black or not? I think it is a Model 6. I would like to know more and when it was made. Can you help?

[mike ford]

Gut-n-Tight
Good for you for saving another old "war horse". Once it is finished, it will give you and your progeny years of good service. It would be easier to help you if you could post photos of the marks. The 16/1 does not stand for "full choke", rather it is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber, expressed in gauge measurement. This measurement works out to about 16.99mm. The " nicht fur kugel" means not for ball, but this doesn't refer to shotgun slugs, such as Brenneke or American type slugs, which are all rated for use in full choke barrels. The "Kugel" refers to a solid round ( about bore size) ball, like we used to call "punken balls"(slang). The left barrel would have a crown W which means "choked", but doesn't address the amount of constriction. It would also have a crown S, which means it was proofed for "shot". If the right barrel doesn't have a crown W, it was made without choke, rather than having been opened up. Of course it should also have a crown S, since you didn't mention a crown G ( which It would have if proofed to use a single projectile- kugel). The crown U is the mark for "view" proof, which is a detailed inspection( including verifying dimensions) after a definitive proof, using the provisional proof load. The mark you describe as "PAPP.-65.4,S.P28,5 PL" is confusing, but it might be a mark describing the "duty" load for the gun. It might be "PAPP( paper case) 16ga-65mm( matches circle 16 mark). 4,? S.P ( 4.? grams[ maybe 9] Schultz[ if nitro] or Schwarz[ if black] Powder[pulver]) 28.5 grams shot( instead of PL, it is likely BL for Blei [lead]). The Germans often used a comma where we use a period and vice versa. Such a mark could be a proof load-but I believe the quantities match a "field load" rather than a proof load. If you can't post photos, check very closely to see if you can find a small crown N, which is a nitro proof mark. A photo might help ID the mark you describe as 5..9S as well as the one you described as a "Queen's Crown" JP Sauer had a house quality mark( not a proof mark) that was a crown, larger than the crowns in proof marks. This mark was also often used on guns they made for the" trade" and not marked as Sauer. If Axel comes into the discussion, he can give better information than I.
Mike

[Axel E]

The German proofhouses alway marked the service load the gun was proofed to use, never the higher pressure proof load. This gun was proofed to use the then standard (according to the 1892 proof tables) 16 gauge load: 4.9 gramm = 76 gr = 2 3/4 dram black powder and 28.5 gramm = 1 oz lead shot. SP stands for Schwarzpulver = blackpowder, while the early smokeless Schultze powder was SchP.
Knowing the serial number would help dating the gun, as Jim Cate published a list of known serial numbers in his book on Sauer & Sohn.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks.
Mike

[Gut-n-Tight]

Learning more, thanks everyone. Regarding my JP Sauer...
I just got my Proof Mark book, I owned this book decades ago when I collected WWII German arms. I gather it was made between 1893 and 1912 - when Nitro proof marks came into existence. If so, then there would be no Nitro proof marks (?) as in the case. There is no crown N nor nitro marks. I'll descend into my underground HQ shortly and dig up the serial number and try to take a photo later. Now I understand the "Kugel" marking.
Later - Serial number is: 59423, above which is the mark, "AW". Crown over S is on both barrel rounds and flats. The crown over a W & U are also on the flats.
The side locks are extensively decorated lightly in a floral pattern. I've also got the old Sauer brochure copy and the model 6 looks close to what I have but the pin/screw arrangement is different on the rear of the locks. It has a pistol grip and cheek piece.
As an aside, RST assures me that their 2 1/2" shells are appropriate for this shotgun as they make them low pressure for old guns even Damascus barrels. Comments? I'd rather not have to invest in more Pyrodex if I can use the RST light loads. I've been using their shells for years and reloading them. I often take my old Germanics out to the skeet and trap range, rotating them so not to wear out any one too soon.

[Axel E]

The serial number dates the gun to about 1896 - 97.

[Gut-n-Tight]

Thanks Axel. Will it be safe to fire the smokeless RST light load shot shells?

[Axel E]

As the gun was proofed for blackpowder only and as I don't know your "RST light loads", I can not answer your question. In fact, noone can guarantee such use. If you try, you are on your own.

[Gut-n-Tight]

Finally, here are photos of this SXS...

[Gut-n-Tight]

A close up of the flats...

[Gut-n-Tight]

Another photo...

[Gut-n-Tight]

Today was the day that this old SXS went to the range. After firing off a few using Pyrodex powder we nerved up and tested four of RST's 16 gauge 65mm 'Falcon Light' #9 shot 7/8 oz. loads. We then moved to the skeet range. It passed both tests and in fact I did as well with it as I did with my Rheinmetall SXS. I am well pleased with the old girl.