Firing pin block assembly for Carl Gunterman Rifle

[Raisin]

Hello to all. I am a new member who knows that he does not know much about these fine rifles. I have one rifle that only the action is original. The barrel had been changed before I acquired it,and the wood was bad. A good friend made a very nice left hand stock patterned after the original. A nice shooting 32-20. My second rifle is a Carl Gunterman made in Dusseldorf. There is a little flash rust on the outside, the wood is good, the bore is pristine 8.15x46R. My problem is it is missing the block and firing pin assembly. I want to restore it to firing order. I have been told it is a von Schatzel action. Finding an original part is nearly impossible. I would like to know if anyone might have a rifle like this that can send me a picture or drawing of the block. I have some equipment and skills for manufacture of a block and have friends that are better. Something close will be better than starting from scratch. Any ideas and help will be greatly appreciated.

[mike ford]

Raisin,
It would be helpful if you could post photos with overall dimensions of the opening for the breechblock. A quick search failed to turn up a von Schatzel. Under other circumstances I would opine that von Schatzel is likely a dealer rather than manufacturer. However, it seems that Carl Gunterman, Dusseldorf, did that instead. Can you remember the source of the information that it is a "von Schatzel" action?
Mike

[Raisin]

Hi Mike
The information came from a person to whom I sent pictures of the action. I will attach pictures. The block should be 2.625 long from the center of the pivot pin to the face of the breech and .875 in width.My pictures are too high definition to load. I will try again this pm with different pictures. Are there any other means of identification than the makers name on the barrel? Thanks for the help. Bruce

[Raisin]

additional pics

[mike ford]

Raisin,
As shown by the photos, your rifle is a Martini type and is quite common in German rifles. This type is not the same as British Martini Henry, Greener, or Cadet actions. The differences are more than just the size, the arrangement of the under lever and trigger; consequently the way they are cocked are different. You will note that the underlever/ trigger on your rifle are located considerably to the rear of the action, as compared to the others. DAMKO, DK Precision Outdoor LLC makes "modern" Martini rifles in 25-35 and 30-30 Winchester, which have a rim diameter similar to the 8.15x46R. Their rifles are Martini Henry type, and I could not determine if they actually make the actions, or if they rework surplus Military actions( Nepalese?). If they make them themselves, there is an outside chance that they might help you. I suggest you look in Frank De Hass' Single Shot Actions, he is likely to have a similar, if not the same, action shown in scale. Unfortunately, all my Martinis are the wrong type, but I am certain other members have the type you need. Whether they will agree to take one apart to help you is another question. If you look back through old threads in this forum, you might find someone that has one, and you could "PM" them.
Mike

[Raisin]

Hi Mike
Thank you for the information. I will pursue the avenues you have suggested. Thank you very much for your help. I will post more as information becomes available.

Bruce

[Axel E]

This variation of The Peabody -Martini dropping block action with a hammer under the breechblock and main spring in front was originally designed by the Austrian civil engineer Gustav von Schatzl, 1854 -1928. From 1887 to 1898 he was director of the Ferlach gunmaking college. But most of the "v.Schatzl" actions were made by the Zella - Mehlis guntrade.
The Guntermanns, F.L. and his son Carl, had a gunshop in Duesseldorf, Grabenstrasse 4 since 1865. In 1931 the company was bankrupt. They retailed your rifle.
As such actions of the v.Schatzl design were made by several Zella - Mehlis makers, as well as some Ferlach ones, the actual dimensions of both actions and breechblocks may differ from rifle to rifle.
To quote Tom Rowe: Alte Scheibenwaffen Vol.2, page 112:
" System von Schatzl Martini: This is the most commonly encountered Martini system that we have found in our study?. The variations of this action are enough to give one more gray hairs! Even a small action made for a boy or lady is illustrated."

[algmule]

The Guntermanns, F.L. and his son Carl, had a gunshop in Duesseldorf, Grabenstrasse 4 since 1865. In 1931 the company was bankrupt.

"*Carl Guntermann, B?chsenmacher, Grabenstra?e 4" (D?sseldorf) [1940] ("Handelsgerichtlich eingetragene Firmen sind durch * bezeichnet.")

Apparently a Carl Guntermann owned a Waffenhandlung in D?sseldorf in 1940. At some time (before 1900) there was also a Karoline Guntermann, owner of a Waffengesch?ft (gunshop/arms store).

EDIT: the question marks should be quotation marks and letters with an Umlaut and German "double S. EDIT again: have now changed to quotation marks

Peter

[yamoon]

Sounds like a daunting task. I have 3 and none if the parts are interchangeable. Should you decide to part out the rifle, I would be interested in the V main spring. Good luck.
Mike

[Raisin]

Thank all of you for the information. I am learning a lot. Nearly finished with a plastic block. Works at about 98%. Will transfer these dimensions to a cnc program, then make a hard plastic block for final adjustments. Then on to a steel part. I will keep posting my failures and successes.

Bruce